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Spanish - Dar las ganas | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5783 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 25 of 33 06 September 2011 at 11:56am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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At the moment "ganas" still feels like a subject to me, but I must admit that I'm not
at all sure here, which is what I meant by I think this thread still has life. As mentioned above (and as we all know) dar has several meanings, yet the assumption being made here in Cainntear's analysis (the only thing that I can see wrong with it) is that dar = give. As I mentioned above one dictionary I use lists this kind of construction with dar under a different meaning of dar from "give", namely that of "to come over"- (me dieron ganas de... the desire came upon me to...). In this scheme, if you look up dar in the DRAE, No 23 would be the transitive meaning of dar, with ganas as direct object. 23. tr. Causar, ocasionar, mover. Dar gusto, gana And No No 33 would be the intransitive meaning of dar, with ganas as subject. 33. intr. Dicho de una enfermedad, pasión súbita del ánimo, etc.: Sobrevenir y empezar a sentirla física o moralmente. Dar un síncope, un dolor, frío A mí me va a dar algo ¿Qué te ha dado? That said I'm not very happy with this explanation, as it seems more than a little artificial to have dar = "come over" in "me dieron ganas de...", yet dar = "give" in "Pasar tiempo en España me ha dado ganas de aprender Español". Of course the different English verbs reflect a grammatical curiosity of the same Spanish verb, see below. The link given by Javi above clearly states that ganas plays the role of the subject if there is no other subject ("Cuando no existe en la oración otro sustantivo que funcione como sujeto, esta función la desempeña gana(s)"), with no mention of a change in meaning of the verb dar. This clears up that it is acting as the subject in these sentences. but leaves us with a big question (why?)! Even if you look at it in this way, it is amazing that the direct object of the transitive verb moves to become the subject of the intransitive verb!!!!! Why don't they use "impersonal se" (se me dieron ganas, se le dio un infarto etc)? It is confusing and fascinating, but although I'm certainly no expert and could easily be wrong, "me dieron ganas de" just doesn't feel like impersonal they. Spanish uses this construction with more than just ganas, and if the noun is singular (unless, of course, there is some other subject, in which case dar will agree), so is dar- le dio un infarto/ un ataque/ etc. Let's hope somebody can clear this interesting topic up! Edited by Random review on 06 September 2011 at 11:59am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5226 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 26 of 33 06 September 2011 at 7:59pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I forgot this:
Yes, using 'Pasando' would be wrong. When an action taking place is the subject, it is usually an active participle (-ing form) in English, so to you it sounds 'natural' too; in Spanish, verbs-as-subject are always in the infinitive form (there might be rare counterexamples but I can't think of any right now). So, in English you can say 'To write is difficult', or 'Writing is difficult' (I'm aware they have sligtly different meanings) but in Spanish you just say 'Escribir es difícil'. Also,
Because that would be pretty artificial. The only way you could have "dar" = "come over" wouldn't generally involve "ganas": dar = come over -> "No sé qué me dio, me iba a desmayar" = "I don't know what came over me, I was about to faint". except maybe if you say "me dieron unas ganas locas", or include "de repente", or add some other fitting context. Without any extras, I'd always say "dar" = "give", but as soon as you surround it with other stuff, the most proper translation may be different, just as with any other word for that matter. 'walk' = 'caminar'? Maybe for 'walk the streets', certainly not for 'walk the dogs'. WRT "ganas" and "come over", to express the suddenness or that you're overwhelmed I'd rather say "entrar ganas", or "ganas locas/tremendas/enormes", etc. :)
'Logic' only applies to languages when systematic patterns come into play, and even then, it's generally just an alternate way to say 'we felt like doing it this way instead of that other one' :) 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Javi Senior Member Spain Joined 5981 days ago 419 posts - 548 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 27 of 33 06 September 2011 at 11:37pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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In Spanish it's quite normal that the DO becomes the subject when the verb shifts from
transitive to intransitive (usually through the addition of the particle se, but not always). For example: Yo rompo el espejo El espejo se rompe Yo caigo la botella (non-standard, regional usage) La botella cae Pasear me da hambre A las 12 nos dio hambre In the first case hambre is given to me by the act of strolling, so it's something very similar to a DO (although it doesn't seem to accept the DO unstressed pronoun (a mí también me la da???) . In the other case no one gives or receives anything, so hambre is the subject of a process developing on its own, surging inside me, so here dar is an intransitive verb. If anyone wants to follow this up, try to look for 'impersonales con dar' in your favourite Spanish grammar, but I think that the most important thing from a learner perspective is the subject-verb agreement: ¿Le pegaste? -- No, pero ganas me dieron --> Good ¿Le pegaste? -- No, pero ganas me dio --> Not so good, although actually used Edited by Javi on 06 September 2011 at 11:37pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5783 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 28 of 33 07 September 2011 at 12:36am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes, sure, but that makes much more sense because it is "impersonal se", and is already well explained in most Spanish courses.
That is interesting, I hadn't ever heard "caigo la botella" before, only "se me cae la botella".
Yes, but that's exactly the same structure that we're trying to explain. I found a thread on wordreference which goes over the same ground. wordreference @mr warper, thanks for clearing up my confusion, the entry in the Oxford Dictionary confused me; but the entry in Collins has these constructions clearly under dar = entrar as you stated. I do however still believe that there is an interesting explanation here that we are missing. Even with your correction it still seems really arbitrary (I think you agree, if I have understood you correctly) that dar = entrar in "me dieron ganas de..." and = hacer sentir in "Pasar tiempo en España me ha dado ganas de aprender Español". Edited by Random review on 07 September 2011 at 1:10am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Javi Senior Member Spain Joined 5981 days ago 419 posts - 548 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 29 of 33 07 September 2011 at 12:44am | IP Logged | ||||||||
That's what the RAE says about that usage:
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| kerateo Triglot Senior Member Mexico Joined 5646 days ago 112 posts - 180 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English, French Studies: Italian | Message 30 of 33 07 September 2011 at 12:49am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Dar las nalgas?
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| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5430 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 31 of 33 07 September 2011 at 2:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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In light of recent posts, I think that I would revise my earlier position that "ganas" in "me dieron ganas" is necessarily a direct object. I now see how it could be interpreted as a plural subject. It's quite an interesting question because it illustrates, I think, a particular difficulty of Spanish for speakers of English, that of identifying the subject. Because of its very flexible word order, the option of not including subject pronouns and the lack of visible indefinite pronoun "it", Spanish phrasing can seem confusing, especially when regional and nonstandard usages are thrown in.
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| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5783 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 32 of 33 22 September 2011 at 1:49am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Hope you don't mind me bumping this thread, I just feel like there is more here.
For instance dar is again involved in a similar construction in which the logical object becomes (I think) the grammatical subject and where I would, if I took the explanations in grammar books seriously (and more and more I don't for precisely this kind of reason!), have expected "se" (as in "se me da la impresion", which I don't remember ever seeing, and assume is wrong): Quería comprar X, pero no me dio tiempo (approximately = no tuve tiempo) Me da la impresión de que quiere hacerlo (approximately = tengo la impresión de que... i.e. me parece que...) I really feel sure that there's something interesting going on here and that we'll all kick ourselves when somebody explains it! Edited by Random review on 22 September 2011 at 1:56am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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