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German Without Toil - "schlechter Laune" | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| pfn123 Senior Member Australia Joined 5083 days ago 171 posts - 291 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 9 of 21 14 October 2011 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | ||
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I don't speak German, but since the difference is a final 'r', perhaps if you just speed up and speak the phrase very very quickly, no one will be sure which you used, and everyone listening will be happy :D hehehe
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| Kyle Corrie Senior Member United States Joined 4829 days ago 175 posts - 464 votes | Message 10 of 21 14 October 2011 at 4:22pm | IP Logged | ||
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After my embarrassing guess I've tried to find a rule that would provide an answer.
I've been digging through 'The Popular Educator: Vol. 1' for a few hours this morning and the best I have found is, as Iverson already alluded to, a Latin rule of dependency. "One noun governs another in the genitive case." This rule simply means that of two nouns which are connected with each other by a relation of dependence, the noun which is dependent on the other noun must be put in the genitive case. Obviously I can see there is just one noun in 'Wir waren müde und schlechter Laune.', but it leads me to believe in a similar German grammar rule with adjective-noun connections that I can't find. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4844 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 11 of 21 14 October 2011 at 8:33pm | IP Logged | ||
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As Iversen correctly said, this construction is called genitivus qualitatis - genitivus absolutus is a rather unfortunate name because this genitive is not dissolved from the rest of the sentence like a Latin ablativus absolutus or a Greek genitivus absolutus.
I checked my DUDEN grammar book and it clearly states that this use of the genitive case is a genitivus qualitatis. It gives more examples like "der Mann ist mittleren Alters" or "der Mensch ist guten Willens". It also states that this construction belongs to elaborate language. Outside of this level of style it's bound to idioms: "Der Genitivus Qualitatis wird hauptsächlich in gehobener Sprache verwendet; außerhalb dieser Stilschicht ist sein Vorkommen an feste Wendungen gebunden". I think this answers the question. It has nothing to do with prepositions or obscure adjective-noun relations but is a grammatical phenomenon of its own. 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| gammarayson Diglot Senior Member Denmark Joined 5432 days ago 6 posts - 7 votes Speaks: English*, Danish Studies: German | Message 12 of 21 15 October 2011 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | ||
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Interesting discussion, but if "Ich bin guter/schlechter Laune" is old-fashioned/literary style what would the current
modern, colloquial translation of "I'm in a good/bad mood" be? Ich habe gute/schlechte Laune? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4844 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 13 of 21 15 October 2011 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | ||
Exactly! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| palfrey Senior Member Canada Joined 5273 days ago 81 posts - 180 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, French | Message 14 of 21 17 October 2011 at 10:42pm | IP Logged | ||
Actually, the Assimil lesson is not without some explanation. In my copy, the notes read:
He has a cheerful disposition. He is of a cheerful disposition. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Jinx Triglot Senior Member Germany reverbnation.co Joined 5693 days ago 1085 posts - 1879 votes Speaks: English*, German, French Studies: Catalan, Dutch, Esperanto, Croatian, Serbian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Italian, Spanish, Yiddish | Message 15 of 21 18 October 2011 at 8:10pm | IP Logged | ||
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A quick tip for understanding such constructions: if it's the genitive case, you can often make it clearer to yourself by mentally adding an "of" (because, after all, that's exactly what the genitive implies: possession).
Doing that, we get "We were of bad mood" which obviously sounds awkward, but at least it makes the intended meaning clear. A similar construction that makes for a good example is the commonly heard "Meiner Meinung...", meaning "In my opinion" and literally translated (using my trick) as "Of my opinion..." Again, it's not pretty, but it makes the intention of the phrase instantly clear. I hope this helps. Edited by Jinx on 18 October 2011 at 10:30pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4828 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 16 of 21 18 October 2011 at 10:27pm | IP Logged | ||
This also works with some of the genitive-taking prepositions: "Wegen" - because of, or on account of "trotz" - in spite of "außerhalb/innerhalb" - outside of, inside of "(an)statt" - instead of. "Wahrend" (during) is less obvious, but you can think of it as "in the course of". By the way: "I am of the opinion that ....", or "we are of the same opinion", is fairly consistent with German usage, so the "...meiner Meinung..." should not really sound too strange. What I have never fully understood is the insistence (by teachers of grammar, anyway), on "meiner meinung nach" and never to put the "nach" before the "meiner". I think I have heard native speakers saying it the "wrong" way round, but only rarely. Perhaps it depends on exactly how the sentence is structured. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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