Changing language from Czech to Russian (Specific Languages) Language Learning Forum

Changing language from Czech to Russian
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Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages

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floydak
Tetraglot
Groupie
Slovakia
Joined 4854 days ago
60 posts - 85 votes

Speaks: Slovak*, English, German, Spanish
Studies: French

Message 10 of 27

28 August 2011 at 9:37pm | IP Logged

Chung wrote:

[QUOTE=Sionis]

The only notable complication that I can recall from Czech is that Czechs don't often
use the language as taught in the textbook. There's a noticeable distinction between
Standard Czech and Common/"Colloquial" Czech (this is different from slang) with the
former reserved for classrooms and official/formal contexts. It's acceptable for a
foreigner to use only Standard Czech but that foreigner may have a hell of a time
participating in conversations with other Czechs whose tendency is to use the
Common/"Colloquial" language in such situations. At some point the learner will need to
learn some Common/"Colloquial" language. Standard Czech is basically codified on
Prague's dialect(s) as used in the 16th and 17th centuries while Common/Colloquial
Czech basically arose from Prague's dialect(s) as used in the 18th and 19th centuries.
The difference between the two "languages" lies in grammar and pronunciation and can
confuse someone who is not aware of the differences.

Honestly, I've never (not even remote) seen someone (even slavic-native) who had such
broad
knowledge about slavic languages, you really have to be very enthusiastic:)

I've read some other posts today and this was interesting what I found. Despite the
fact that I've studiet 5 years in Czech republic (however I've probably never in my
life spoken
Czech), despite growing up (passive) with this language until today I've never for
example realized that they have two correct forms of conjugation. It would intersts me
if even czechs do this realize? (probably yes).

Edited by floydak on 28 August 2011 at 9:41pm
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Cavesa
Triglot
Senior Member
Czech Republic
Joined 5009 days ago
3277 posts - 6779 votes

Speaks: Czech*, French^C2, English^C1
Studies: Spanish, German, Italian

Message 11 of 27

28 August 2011 at 11:01pm | IP Logged

We do. But we don't call the spoken form of conjugation "correct".

The form of spoken czech depends a lot on where is the speaker from. For example the dialect of south Moravia is the closest to formal language when it comes to grammar but less close when it comes to vocabulary. It is closer to the old language, from which the norm comes, but with more influence from Slovak.

But floydak, Slavak has two forms as well, doesn't it? Or how would you define the difference between western Slovak and eastern Slovak? I don't speak Slovak and don't know your grammar rules but I can clearly hear a huge difference between those. Speakers from western Slovakia are easily understandable for me while I need to get used to speakers of the eastern form (and I have occassional trouble to understand some of them even after a year). Is it a difference between dialects only or are those formal (probably the western) and informal form?
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floydak
Tetraglot
Groupie
Slovakia
Joined 4854 days ago
60 posts - 85 votes

Speaks: Slovak*, English, German, Spanish
Studies: French

Message 12 of 27

28 August 2011 at 11:18pm | IP Logged

Cavesa wrote:

We do. But we don't call the spoken form of conjugation "correct".

The form of spoken czech depends a lot on where is the speaker from. For example the
dialect of south Moravia is the closest to formal language when it comes to grammar but
less close when it comes to vocabulary. It is closer to the old language, from which
the norm comes, but with more influence from Slovak.

But floydak, Slavak has two forms as well, doesn't it? Or how would you define the
difference between western Slovak and eastern Slovak? I don't speak Slovak and don't
know your grammar rules but I can clearly hear a huge difference between those.
Speakers from western Slovakia are easily understandable for me while I need to get
used to speakers of the eastern form (and I have occassional trouble to understand some
of them even after a year). Is it a difference between dialects only or are those
formal (probably the western) and informal form?

(Sorry for the rest, this will be a little off-topic, administrator could move it to
more propper area)

Honestly, I'm not really sure. I'm from central Slovakia and we speak here very
correct. That's becouse formal slovak was codified under the standards of Central-
Slovak dialect. But I've never noticed different conjugation patterns. Maybe Chung will
correct me :).. I mean there are some extremes close to the borders, but language which
is spoken there is almost completly different than Slovak. But if you meet average guy
from eastern slovakia I think the most serious reason why it makes problems to you to
understand, is not that they are using very different vocabulary, but becouse they
speak in this typical eastern "zaťahujú" way. In Czech and standard Slovak the stress
is always on the beggining of the word. But people from east put stress toward end of
the word which can maybe cause you understanding troubles. But I´m not aware of fact,
that they use different conjugation pattern like in Czech. (oni dekuji/dekujou)

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Cavesa
Triglot
Senior Member
Czech Republic
Joined 5009 days ago
3277 posts - 6779 votes

Speaks: Czech*, French^C2, English^C1
Studies: Spanish, German, Italian

Message 13 of 27

28 August 2011 at 11:29pm | IP Logged

I'm not sure about their conjugation patterns (there might be no difference in those) but I am quite unable to tell "where is the dog dug in" (sorry, I know this probably doesn't exist in English but floydak will surely understand). I had impression that even the pronunciation is different, cannot believe the stress by itself would cause such a difference. And is it only my impression or do eastern slovaks speak faster and with shorter vowels (something like czechs from Ostrava)?
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floydak
Tetraglot
Groupie
Slovakia
Joined 4854 days ago
60 posts - 85 votes

Speaks: Slovak*, English, German, Spanish
Studies: French

Message 14 of 27

29 August 2011 at 12:06am | IP Logged

well you are right, but all this depends.. when someone speaks really with strong
dialect, there are also bigger vocabulary diferencies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INyrf3ZgicM&feature=related

check this, until 14. second it's heavy eastern dialect (no way I could speak it), after
that it's standard slovak. but I know many people from east which are my
classmates/friends etc. and no one speaks this way (maybe to some extent), probably older
people and people from smaller cities/villages still use it.
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floydak
Tetraglot
Groupie
Slovakia
Joined 4854 days ago
60 posts - 85 votes

Speaks: Slovak*, English, German, Spanish
Studies: French

Message 15 of 27

29 August 2011 at 12:13am | IP Logged

and finally, to connect it somehow to the original topic. this eastern dialect is closer
to ukraine/russian language whereas west dialects is close to czech language which is the
final reason why you understand it better:)

just to close this topic, this is sample of strong western dialect
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPAI_Nt0uoM (last part is again standard slovak)
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Sionis
Newbie
United States
Joined 4900 days ago
33 posts - 34 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Russian, Romanian

Message 16 of 27

29 August 2011 at 6:36am | IP Logged

Thank you all for the answers and links, this has all been a huge help.

lingoleng wrote:

Sionis wrote:

I was going to pick up a workbook to start learning the alphabet and a grammar book to start reading up on the Russian grammar.
Any thoughts?

I am not sure if you mean what you are saying here, but learning a language by reading a grammar is for experienced language learners only, so don't do this.
What you want is structured instruction, introducing grammar in a graded way, from easy to more complex. The usual suspects like Teach Yourself, Colloquial, Linguaphone, Assimil ... to name just a few are much better suited for a beginner, else you may experience considerable difficulties and frustration from the very beginning.
Having a good, not too thick grammar for looking things up and for deepening certain themes is a good idea, of course, but it should not be your primary source for studying, imo.

I wasn't planning on attempting to learn the language simply through grammar books, I have just read something things in the past that made me beleive knocking out the Cyrillic alphabet and getting a base in the alphabet was a good way to start learning the language. But your input was much more helpful then some of those I've read in the past.

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