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The efficiency of Chinese characters | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| nway Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/Vic Joined 5419 days ago 574 posts - 1707 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean | Message 9 of 81 01 September 2011 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | |||||
The difference is that Chữ Nôm was never particularly effective at communicating spoken Vietnamese (whereas it works adequately enough for Mandarin), and even more so, Chinese characters were of course never culturally indigenous to Vietnam or Korea, meaning they had nationalistic reasons for abandoning the influences of their often overbearing and hostile neighbor.
GDP per capita, 2011: 48,347,105 Hong Kong 37,208,709 Taiwan _8,288,818 China _3,326,314 Vietnam Vietnam is, if anything, a counter-example that illustrates that an alphabetical writing system and a character-based system don't necessarily correlate to prosperity, or lack thereof. It's true that there could be other factors of work explaining why Chinese societies have been more successful than numerous alphabet-based ones, but the point is that character-based written systems clearly do not cause any significant impediment to societal prosperity, unless you're suggesting that, with an alphabet, the Sinosphere would be by far the most prosperous region on earth. Edited by nway on 01 September 2011 at 6:09pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Ygangerg Pentaglot Senior Member United States Joined 5322 days ago 100 posts - 140 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Arabic (Written), Mandarin, French Studies: German | Message 10 of 81 01 September 2011 at 6:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
I think you're wrong there. The "dialects" are simply too different in pronunciation. They're really different languages. It's a rather special case that isn't easily compared to the Romance languages for linguistic reasons. In Chinese, each morpheme is one syllable, and is represented by one character. So despite the wild changes that have brought these "dialects" apart (Mandarin has 4 tones, Cantonese has 8, rampant sound change in the consonants, etc), people who cannot speak Mandarin can read the characters. Sure, educated Portuguese speakers can read some French, but they're still making an attempt at deciphering a different language. It's not the same for them as reading Portuguese. That's not how it works in the present-day Chinese situation. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Improbably Diglot Newbie Norway Joined 4940 days ago 34 posts - 87 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English | Message 11 of 81 01 September 2011 at 6:33pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I thought that was exactly how it worked in the present day Chinese situation. Everyone learns to write Mandarin with Chinese characters, and if they write their own dialect with those very same characters, differences in grammar and character use would render the text about as intelligible for a Mandarin speaker as French is to a Portuguese speaker. Am I completely wrong about this?
2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cthulhu Tetraglot Senior Member Canada Joined 7227 days ago 139 posts - 235 votes Speaks: French*, English, Mandarin, Russian | Message 12 of 81 01 September 2011 at 6:50pm | IP Logged | |||||
Those are the only options? The Sinosphere is either a middle income (At best) developing region with a GDP per capita of just over $8000, or by far the most prosperous region on the planet? If that's what it takes to meet your criteria of 'significant' then fine, I guess you might be right and Chinese characters do not retard economic development by a factor of 10 or so. All the same, if someone is using a less dramatic definition of the word 'significant', then your suggestion that character-based writing systems do not cause any significant impediment to societal prosperity remains unproven despite the prosperity of Hong Kong and Taiwan. Improbably: You're exactly right, but a lot of Chinese people hate hearing that so I wouldn't say it too loudly. Edited by Cthulhu on 01 September 2011 at 6:53pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Ygangerg Pentaglot Senior Member United States Joined 5322 days ago 100 posts - 140 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Arabic (Written), Mandarin, French Studies: German | Message 13 of 81 01 September 2011 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
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@ Improbably:
You're right. There are differences in grammar and some differences in character usage. But I believe reading Mandarin characters is still much more doable for speakers of other Chinese varieties than reading Mandarin pinyin would be. Any native Chinese speakers want to add? 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| nway Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/Vic Joined 5419 days ago 574 posts - 1707 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean | Message 14 of 81 01 September 2011 at 7:00pm | IP Logged | |||||
I was referring to the static wealth of economically free diasporic regions like Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore, and the growth trajectory of the PRC, whose poverty I attribute to decades of upper-level (governmental) mismanagement, rather than something innately culturally Chinese. I consider the economically free diasporic regions to be the fully realized aggregate of whatever "Chinese culture" may amount to in the sense of societal prosperity. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| clumsy Octoglot Senior Member Poland lang-8.com/6715Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5182 days ago 1116 posts - 1367 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, Japanese, Korean, French, Mandarin, Italian, Vietnamese Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swedish Studies: Danish, Dari, Kirundi | Message 15 of 81 01 September 2011 at 7:03pm | IP Logged | |||||
Well, I have read it somewhere. Hanzi represent ideas, which are easier for the brain to process.
also, the word 機 cannot be used by itself, it has to be combined with other characters. machine in Chinese is rather 機器。 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Improbably Diglot Newbie Norway Joined 4940 days ago 34 posts - 87 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English | Message 16 of 81 01 September 2011 at 7:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
Then I suppose the question is, what is more work for speakers of dialects: Learning 4000+ characters, or learning Mandarin Chinese, as spoken, and as written in pinyin? 1 person has voted this message useful |
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