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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Kartof Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5066 days ago 391 posts - 550 votes  Speaks: English*, Bulgarian*, Spanish Studies: Danish | Message 9 of 16 18 September 2011 at 4:24am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I've read that the eszett is a ligature of two of the letter s. When the letter s was written in the middle of a word in many European languages, it resembled an elongated s, an f without the right part of the little stroke through it, or the symbol in calculus for integration (S for sum). In German, when written quickly, the top of this elongated s could have easily been connected to the top of the following, normal s, forming ß. That's what I've read anyway. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4949 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 10 of 16 18 September 2011 at 6:55am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yeah, I'm lucky I don't forget that one, but many people who are learners do and write 30 with a -ss, -z or even an -s. The reason it is "dreißig" is because there is a diphtong before the -ss sound, if you notice the other "tens" do not (zwanzig, vierzig, achtzig, etc). This is not a perfect rule, but after the spelling reform, the Eszett remains in "long" sounding vowels and dipthongs (beißen), but becomes -ss in short vowels (gebissen). Or for example: - ich weiß / ich wusste (before wußte) and of course dass (yet many still use daß) Edited by outcast on 18 September 2011 at 6:57am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| egill Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5696 days ago 418 posts - 791 votes Speaks: Mandarin, English* Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 11 of 16 18 September 2011 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Actually the eszett is a sz ligature, whence the name. (s = es, z = zett). It might be easier to see if you can imagine the handwritten cursive/kurrent form of z And the long s (ſ) was used not just in the middle, but also in the beginning of the word. This has parallels in Greek orthography (σ vs. ς). The orthographic reform regularized the usage of ß vs. ss. The former comes after dipthongs and long vowels while the latter comes after short vowels. This makes it internally consistent and therefore easier from a learner's perspective, which I find nice—but I understand many Germans vehemently disagree with the changes. Edited by egill on 18 September 2011 at 12:35pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Sunja Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6085 days ago 2020 posts - 2295 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Mandarin | Message 12 of 16 18 September 2011 at 2:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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The difference when to use "ss" and when to use "ß" or "s" is easier if you look at the vowel sounds.
Long vowel sounds = "ß" or "s" genießen, ließ, Schweiß, Fleiß, beißt, reißt, Stoß, Hase, Rose, Reise, lesen, Brise (breeze) If you already know how to pronounce "genießen" then you know that a short vowel sound "i" would change the word to "genissen". It's the same elongated vowel sound in "Brief". (Not "Brif".) English has its short/long vowels too. "lit" (short i) and "light" (long i). short vowels = "ss", and in most respects, double consonants follow short vowels. rissig, Schuss, Biss, isst, wissen, fassen, Ross, lassen, fressen (other short-vowel-words where the consonant is doubled: kommen, wollen, Affe, robben, Hammer, Donner,...) "rissig" (cracked) is a short vowel ---) "ss" "riesig" (giant) is a long vowel, -----) "s" So if you already know how to pronounce words, try sounding the word out first before you spell it and you can learn when to use the "ß/s" and when to use "ss". That's half the battle right there! If you're unsure whether it's "ß" or "s" -- then the only thing that helps is a book and rote memorization. (There's not that many ß-words anymore so it's not as big of a chore as it used to be.) I like this one, Duden, Crashkurs Rechtschreibung Edited by Sunja on 18 September 2011 at 5:38pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| LebensForm Senior Member Austria Joined 5050 days ago 212 posts - 264 votes Studies: German | Message 13 of 16 19 September 2011 at 1:26am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Thanks again, ya I know how to pronounce words for the most part so I understand that ie and other dipthongs use the ß which is why it's dreißig and not dreissig lol. To see if I undertood you right, the word genießen uses ß because of the ie dipthing? But it is pronounced like genissen? Assuming this is what you meant, the only way people know they mean genissen is because of the ss part otheriwse they may thing the person said genießen? So does that mean wissen sounds like the long sound in ich weiß? So essentially it's like weißen? I do admit,that is one thing I don't get, i understand ich weiß but how do you pronounce wissen, just to put the question out there? I want to make sure I am doing this all correct.
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| Dr. POW Groupie Canada Joined 4965 days ago 48 posts - 58 votes Studies: German, English* Studies: French | Message 14 of 16 19 September 2011 at 3:32am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Genießen (I don't remember exactly, but I think "to enjoy") and "genissen" (never heard
of it) definitely do not sound the same. The eszett only replaces the double-s after a long vowel or dipthong, it does not have a difference in pronunciation from a double-s. nie is pronounced like the English word "knee". ni would be pronounced like the "ni" in the English word "nit". The "ß" and "ss" are pronounced exactly the same way. Remember, ß replaces "ss" for no reasons other than cultural, and sound exactly the same. They don't affect pronunciation, they are affected by pronunciation. Edited by Dr. POW on 19 September 2011 at 3:33am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Sunja Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6085 days ago 2020 posts - 2295 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Mandarin | Message 15 of 16 19 September 2011 at 11:39am | IP Logged | ||||||||
There's no such word as "genissen". Nobody uses that. Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse anyone. I was just trying to make a point. The word genießen uses the ß because of the elongated vowel (English "ee" as in "eel"). That's not really a dipthong. A dipthong is two vowel sounds. Dipthongs/dipthings^^ in German are au, äu, eu, ei und ai. "Genießen" has two vowels, yes, but only one vowel sound, eeeeee. Example of a German dipthong: A-U-to. These are two different vowel sounds. The "A" and the "U". The -IE- sound in "genießen" is just one long vowel sound. It sounds like "ee" in English. That's why the ß is there, because of the long (ee) sound. "ß" comes after "weiß", too. That's a dipthong. It sounds like AH-EE in English. Double "ss" never comes after long vowels or dipthongs! (or at least it's not supposed to, according to the rules)
Wait a moment, I think you're confusing the German "i" sound with the English phonetics! German "i" -- short like in IT or EAT German "ei" -- long like in MIGHT German "ie" -- long like in EEL
EDIT: I edited my post here, sorry. I know of a difference between ß and s, but I think your right, Dr. POW, there's no difference that I know of between the double ss and the eszett. Edited by Sunja on 19 September 2011 at 12:28pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| LebensForm Senior Member Austria Joined 5050 days ago 212 posts - 264 votes Studies: German | Message 16 of 16 20 September 2011 at 6:44am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Ya I understand the ie and ei and au and all that but for some reason I thought someone said something that made me think that wissen was pronounced differently than I orginally thought which was apparently correct. But sometimes, it sounds like people say wieder and wider the same way,I know they are different words and have different sounds but sometimes how certian people say one sounds to me like the other... But I do understand that ie makes a eeee sound and i makes a short i sound.... thanks again,
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