Tense confusion in English... (Specific Languages) Language Learning Forum

Tense confusion in English...
Tags: Verbs/Conjugation \| Grammar \| English
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13 messages over 2 pages: 1 2

s_allard
Triglot
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Canada
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Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
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Message 9 of 13

20 September 2011 at 3:29pm | IP Logged

s_allard wrote:

From my perspective, they are all the same. Not that subtle differences can not be found, as Iversen has pointed out. Here we are looking at five slightly different written forms. The natural tendency is to see some subtle difference in meaning. If these examples were spoken at a natural speed with all the typical contractions of spoken speech, how many people would detect a difference? Very few in my opinion.

This, by the way, is one of the big differences between spoken and written language. As we all know too well, the written language is a permanent form that we can return to and reflect upon. The spoken language is fleeting, and I suggest that in certain areas of grammar, we tend to hear what we expect to hear. Most people, including myself, cannot remember verbatim something that was said a few minutes earlier unless it was of particular significance. But we can paraphrase it. And we tend to paraphrase it in our own language.

All of this to say that I really wouldn't lose any sleep over the interpretation of the examples given here. I would use any one.

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outcast
Bilingual Heptaglot
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China
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Message 10 of 13

20 September 2011 at 5:01pm | IP Logged

All those sentences should be noted are in the passive voice (the agent is left out), or in the stative passive which shows an outcome ("their movements are planned").

The only thing I wonder is if you can use the present perfect in the same sentence (in very proper writing that should be of no consequence or worry to the OP by the way). For example, "I have gone to the supermarket and have bought eggs." To me that doesn't sound right (or common), and it would normally read "I have gone to the supermarket and bought eggs."

Thus number 3, "Most pieces have been arranged on the game board, and their actions were planed." Wouldn't that be technically better? (again this is an advanced for my own curiousity point, nothing for 2nd language learners of English to worry about).

Edit: now that I think of it, the passive voice has slightly different rules thus the above would not be common either, unless the first verb was ''had been arranged''.

My question would still remain, is number 3 technically correct. As was pointed out by some, isn't number 1 the more appropriate form?

Edited by outcast on 20 September 2011 at 5:09pm
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Random review
Diglot
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United Kingdom
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Message 11 of 13

20 September 2011 at 11:50pm | IP Logged

I agree with Iversen that there are subtle differences of meaning here, but I can't quite
put my finger on what they are (though Iversen identified some of the possibilities, I
think correctly). I think it is a very good question indeed! If it's any help at all, to
me No. 5 feels quite different to the others.

EDIT: this is going to drive me crazy!

Edited by Random review on 21 September 2011 at 12:08am
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Sennin
Senior Member
Bulgaria
Joined 6034 days ago
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5 sounds

Message 12 of 13

22 September 2011 at 10:37pm | IP Logged

Great, thank you all for the very informative responses :-).

Volte wrote:

I prefer 4, and would say "planned out" rather than just "planned", and "moves" or "movements" rather than "actions". I like 1 less, but would probably use it in some contexts. Using "have been" twice in the same sentence seems a bit grating to me, so I'd tend not to use 3, at least in writing - not sure if I might in speech.

2 and 5 seem a little off, somehow. There's something about the use of 'are' for the second clause that's ever so slightly annoying, but I can't really put my finger on it. It's not wrong, per se.

Initially it was "their movements have been planned". However, the word "movements" also appears later in the text so I used "actions" to avoid repetition; Which resulted in the current mess.

Random review, it's true N5 stands out as the odd one. I included it just for the sake of completeness, in order to get a list of all possible combinations of the two tenses.

Edited by Sennin on 22 September 2011 at 11:14pm
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Raчraч Ŋuɲa
Triglot
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New Zealand
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Speaks: Bikol languages*, Tagalog, English^C1
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Message 13 of 13

23 September 2011 at 10:37am | IP Logged

Sennin wrote:

English tenses are a real source of grief for me, so I would appreciate
some help. Which of the following extracts do you think are correct:

Quote:

1. "Most pieces have been arranged on the game board, and their actions planed. But is
there a missing piece ? "
2. "Most pieces have been arranged on the game board, and their actions are planed. But
is there a missing piece ? "
3. "Most pieces have been arranged on the game board, and their actions have been
planed. But is there a missing piece ? "
4. "Most pieces are arranged on the game board, and their actions have been planed. But
is there a missing piece ? "
5. "Most pieces are arranged on the game board, and their actions are planed. But is
there a missing piece ? "

I know it is a lame question but I have to ask anyway :-).

Out of context, I think they are all correct (except the spelling of 'planed' as
mentioned already), but their appropriateness could vary depending on what is being
emphasized. The difference between "have been arranged" vs. "are arranged" and "have
been planned" vs. "are planned" is that the first of the pair stresses that the event
or state is from the past and continuing, while the second ignores the past and only
focuses on the present and what it is currently (but does not mean that the event or
state is not from the past). As Iversen said of the 2nd, "Right now the pieces are
standing on the game board (it isn't important how they got there or when)".

Edited by Raчraч Ŋuɲa on 23 September 2011 at 10:54am

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