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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Logie100 Diglot Newbie New Zealand Joined 5316 days ago 35 posts - 46 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German | Message 25 of 39 16 June 2011 at 1:58am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I'm not only learning fixed sentence but buildning my own sentences based on the structure of sentences I learn 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6010 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes  Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 26 of 39 16 June 2011 at 11:51am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I reckon it's still slower than learning the grammar properly from the start. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5429 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 27 of 39 16 June 2011 at 9:04pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Without wanting to get embroiled in this debate, I do wish to strongly disagree with Cainntear over his statement "Whatever method you use, you do have to learn every conjugation of every verb."
I hope I'm not taking it out of context. If I can refer to English, French and Spanish, this statement is totally false. There are tenses (or maybe we are talking about moods) or conjugated forms that are rarely used. For example, in French, unless you write fiction you have no need for the passé simple and the imperfect subjunctive. In spoken French, you can get by totally without the simple future tense (e.e. j'irai) by using the continuous form (e.g. je vais aller). In fact, this is what most users do today. Add to that the fact that the verb forms with NOUS have been replaced for the most part by the forms with the third person pronoun ON. In Spanish there are forms that are rarely used and whose names I can't remember right now. Also remember in Latin American Spanish the vosotros verb form is hardly used compared to Spain. In English verb conjugation is pretty easy compared to most other languages, but there are some complications. Futhermore Edited by s_allard on 16 June 2011 at 9:06pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6010 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 28 of 39 17 June 2011 at 10:28am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Well even a rarely used tense/aspect/mood is needed. A never-used one, though, isn't. When I say you have to learn every conjugation, I really mean every conjugation in the living language. I'm a descriptivist and just as I don't consider "thou hast" as part of living English, I don't consider the passé simple part of living French, and I haven't learned it yet and have been perfectly capable of reading French novels (although I probably will on the grounds that it appears so similar to the Spanish preterite, and therefore shouldn't be difficult). The future tenses, on the other hand... well, for the little effort that it takes to learn the simple future, it's really worth it. Really, if you want to be able to express yourself with the minimum, you could actually make a case for never learning either, because the present tense will do the job adequately. The problem is that you will hear both and will need to understand both. You might hear "je vais faire qqc" more than "je ferai qqc", but you will hear them both. And the same with "nous". The effort involved in learning these is really not much, and the return makes it worth it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5564 days ago 938 posts - 1840 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 29 of 39 17 June 2011 at 1:25pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I have to say I agree with the above. And even if some tenses are never spoken, they are in the written language - even the most basic of French children's stories (for example the Mr Men stories) are written in the passé simple so you at least need to know what it looks like in order to read books. In any event as you never have to speak it, its just a question of pattern recognition.
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| Logie100 Diglot Newbie New Zealand Joined 5316 days ago 35 posts - 46 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German | Message 30 of 39 18 June 2011 at 5:17am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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what I originally meant by not having to learn every ccojugation of every verb, is that since I've studied Spanish and seen all the verb cojugations, when I see a new verb, for example, the fake verb " otegesar" I know it would be "Otegeso, otegesas, otegesamos.." you know? and even if it was an irregular verb, the person you are talking to would tell you how to conjugate it correctly.
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| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6010 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 31 of 39 18 June 2011 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Ah right. But most people who study consciously learn conjugation rules, rather than memorising each verb individually as though there was no pattern, so you weren't really putting forward a useful argument for your way of working. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| zekecoma Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5343 days ago 561 posts - 655 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish | Message 32 of 39 20 June 2011 at 9:06am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I would advise not to use google translator. It tends to give incorrect German a lot.
It's not even worth using. It puts verbs in the wrong order also it only gives polite form, rarely ever gives you impolite. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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