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Trying out L-R | ||
Tags: Listening-Reading (L-R) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6573 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes  Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 9 of 18 17 June 2011 at 7:08am | IP Logged |
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I've decided Dracula is not a suitable book for the method. Not only the Count speaks with an accent and with weird grammar, but Van Helsing, too. In fact, the book is chock full of local dialects, nonstandard grammar and logbooks written entirely without prepositions and pronouns. I have however found an excellent alternative source in the Sherlock Holmes novels and short stories. I have read most of them and seen the great TV series with that awesome actor Whatshisface. I love them passionately, which fulfills this important criterion.
I've read through the original L-R thread and come to the conclusion that almost everyone seems to have misunderstood the method! Most posters in the thread seem to believe that the L-R method is about listening to the L2 whilst reading the corresponding text in L1. Miss Hopper, however, clearly states that one is supposed to read ahead. I believe this might be important, because as she herself mentions, the visual and audiotory sensual memory lasts for about a second (less for audiotory). My interpretation is that when that second has passed, the actual words in the L2 will not be in your memory, but the meaning you gained from them will still be in your short term memory. Thus when you listen to the L2 it is associated with the meaning, not the words. This is also why familiarity with the work is paramount, as you need to almost effortlessly read ahead whilst listening to the L2 of a few seconds earlier. This is my interpretation and the way I intend to try it, but I suspect it will require some practice to get this skill going. Because of that, I think I'll do some pre-practice already this weekend, to feel the method out. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5757 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 10 of 18 17 June 2011 at 8:39am | IP Logged |
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Ari, that will probably only work in you have a very literal or better hyperliteral translation. Even the bilingual files shared back then weren't quite that literal.
What I end up doing is: I read a sentence or paragraph (depending on my concentration), compress the information to a concept/image-based form, jump back to the point where the audio is, and give my best to match the words I hear with parts of the sentence I've just read. (I did try reading ahead and then reading the original text along with the audio but that's too exhausting for me.) 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6573 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 11 of 18 17 June 2011 at 9:20am | IP Logged |
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Why would it only work with a hyperliteral translation? It seems to me this way it would need even less of a literal translation, as you're associating the L2 with the general meaning, as opposed to the actual words, of the L1.
I don't think I'd enjoy a method where I have to jump around in the text and pause the audio. I want a method that flows, allowing me to cover large amounts of text. The very heart of the L-R method is, after all, massive exposure. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5757 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 12 of 18 17 June 2011 at 10:55am | IP Logged |
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Maybe Sherlock Holmes or the language combination English/Spanish is better suited for that than the books I tried so far; especially when I read German entire dependant clauses are at the other end of a sentence. (I don't pause the audio, as I usually manage to read most of a sentence in the pause before.)
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| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6573 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 13 of 18 17 June 2011 at 12:39pm | IP Logged |
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I cannot see how that would be a problem unless I am listening to Spanish and reading the corresponding sentence in English at the same time, something I explicitly stated I will not be doing.
Of course, it's perfectly plausible my method won't work out as I planned. I'll just have to try it and find out! 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| supertom Diglot Groupie Joined 4985 days ago 87 posts - 114 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English Studies: Spanish | Message 14 of 18 17 June 2011 at 1:10pm | IP Logged |
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Ari, you are in fact right that one should read ahead and then try to match what he/she hears to what he just read. I too did this, with as small pieces of text possible, namely one line at the time. So I quickly read one line and then listened to that line being spoken in Spanish to try and connect the words. This way, I think you get the most out of it.
It is, however, much more intensive to do it this way, since you are constantly working to stay a little ahead, then follow the audio and link what you hear, then read ahead, etc etc. Very exhausting, but the best way to do it in my opinion. If I were to read a paragraph/half page ahead, the main gist of that piece of text would be still in my memory, but all the little details would have evaporated already before I heard them in the audio (yep, even when reading just a single paragraph..). That is why I try to keep my reading ahead as minimal as I can to avoid this loss of details. Hence, I only read ahead one line at the time. As for books, I am still working with Harry Potter (as you probably know;)) and I find it to be at a very good level. High enough that there are still a lot of things I don't understand, but easy enough to understand most of what I hear/read. Maby this is an option for you too? Good luck! 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| tbone Diglot Groupie United States Joined 4982 days ago 92 posts - 132 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish, Russian | Message 15 of 18 17 June 2011 at 7:26pm | IP Logged |
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I agree with your post #9 above. In fact, it also took me a while into Harry Potter to dig up that nugget in one of the
L-R threads. Not much seems to happen when you read along, barely keeping up with the audio. It's a vastly different experience when you read ahead during the natural pauses between sentences, and then you come back and follow along. For one thing, it's exhausting- you really have to be on your toes or you'll just fly ahead and end up on the next page. But the big difference is you "know" what the narrator is saying. It's a much different feeling than going, "ok, he must be here, that's what he just said". 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6573 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 16 of 18 18 June 2011 at 11:16pm | IP Logged |
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Alright, I went through most of The Sign of Four whilst reading along in English last night (three and a half hours)
and finished it along with running through it again today, reading along in French (all in all six and a half hours, for a total of ten over a day and an evening). I also listened to a portion of the book when I went out to eat, so that added maybe forty or so minutes. I'll probably make another run through it tomorrow. Thoughts so far: Reading ahead is quite impossible to do whilst listening to the French at the same time. I can read ahead in the pauses between sentences, as others have done, because reading is so much quicker than speaking. I find that my eyes dart around quite a bit on the page, reading ahead a bit, skipping back to do simultaneous translation, reading ahead some more, &c. I think a parallel or interlinear text would have been useful, but I can't be bothered to make one myself. I've realized the importance of passionately loving the text, as one goes through it several times and must keep focused. I love Sherlock Holmes and this certainly helps a lot. Do I love him passionately enough? Dunno. The book works well for a second read-through, as reading it with all the answers is quite a different experience. Tomorrow I'll make a third pass and whilst some of the pleasure will be lessened, my familiarity with the story will likely aid the reading ahead quite a bit. I'm looking forward to doing this book in Spanish when I try out this method for real. My intimate knowledge of the story will likely be of a huge help, and the new language will serve to renew the pleasure. I've been toying with the idea of using philosophy books in the future, as I think they might have something to gain from reading through over and over. A quick search indicates, however, that most of them are far too short. The Sign of Four is already at the short end at five hours. I can also see the benifit of the extended periods. I feel that the many hours of exposure in a signle day helps with encountering words many times despite them not being arranged according to any schedule. I'm still far from the suggested ten hours a day, but this is just a test for feeling my way around the technique, after all. I like how the audiobook gives the study a kind of "treadmill effect". I prefer running on treadmills than running outdoors (if I have to run at all, which I rarely do), because the treadmill means that I have to do a very conscious action to slow down or stop. I have to reach out and push a button, or the machine will just keep going and I have no choice but to keep up. The same effect I observe with the audiobook. The tape will keep going until I make a conscious effort to stop it, whereas when studying by oneself it's much easier to let the thoughts drift and stop for a while or slow down. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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