|
 |
Mandarin journal | ||
Tags: Mandarin | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Vlad Trilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member Czechoslovakia foreverastudent.com Joined 6575 days ago 443 posts - 576 votes  2 sounds Speaks: Czech*, Slovak*, Hungarian*, Mandarin, EnglishC2, GermanC2, ItalianC1, Spanish, Russian, Polish, Serbian, French Studies: Persian, Taiwanese, Romanian, Portuguese | Message 1 of 17 29 January 2008 at 1:09pm | IP Logged |
|
As many others here I decided to create a journal for my studies. I hope I will map my progress and errors better, gain feedback and stop littering the forum and keep my questions here.
I first started flirting with Mandarin in August 2005, but didn't get very far. I used Rosetta stone, which I found was very interesting but not suitable for such a distant language, a course book that was not suitable for me and 2 books on characters, which were not suitable for anyone in existence and if I could remember their names, I would tell them to you so you would definitely not buy them. In short, I was flirting with Mandarin for a small amount of time, but long enough to understand that it really really isn't a language that you can learn with one of those 'learn Spanish in your car' series. Later I had to concentrate on finishing my masters in intl. relations and diplomacy and worry about Mandarin later so I was reading about the language and the culture here and there, but not studying until I decided that I would like to study the language full time at a university (there was a plan to go to Taiwan for 10 months at one point as well). So I passed the entrance exams and now I'm a full time student of Mandarin at the Charles University in Prague. Recourses I use: Books: - Oldřich Švarný a kolektív: Gramatika hovorovej Čínštiny v príkladoch (The grammar of spoken Chinese in examples - course book) - Спешнев Н.А. Введение в китайский язык: Фонетика и разговорный язык (introduction to the Chinese language: phonetics and spoken language - course book) - William McNaughton: Reading writing Chinese characters - simplified characters edition - Numerous books on Chinese history, geography and culture Internet: - This forum - An amazing site for character explanation - Online dictionary - Pinyin practice - Chinese forums - Pinyin chart (there was a better one out there, but I can't find it anymore) - Chinese pod Computer programs: - Wenlin (aka The Mighty Wenlin:-)) Where I stand right now: I've just finished my first semester. We have learned how to reproduce the Mandarin sounds and tones far from perfect but in a reasonably understandable manner. For future reference, this is me trying to read an excerpt from my course book: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/sounds/index.asp?sound= 232 I've handwritten 5 000 + characters and even though my handwriting in general is terrible, I have no problems handwriting characters and people actually can read them (which is impossible for them to do even in Slovak!:-). I know all the radicals and most of the character components I can at least passively recognize. I know roughly 1100 characters by heart and should be able to use them in context. Speaking is a problem, since we've barely done that. We've had enough problems to start assembling the sounds correctly; conversation was based on memorized sentences and sentence blocks. Grammar: So far we've covered: Measure words, 在，是，有 verbs, about 12 auxiliary verbs, 的，在-着-呢， 吧，给，到。。From what I can remember. There is more, but just an overall review. Problems: There are so many. First, I think I could be learning much more and some of us could go much faster but we have to consider the rest of the class. So my problem is that we are not using the most of our professors, but that is the way it goes and I can't have everything. No conversation. I would really really love to sit down with someone who speaks the language well, but would also be able to explain the rules to me as a student, and try to read a book, or a transcript of a dialogue and have the rules explained in real context. This is something I have to do. I would also really love to see a comprehensive map of Mandarin grammar. In Italian I knew from the first moment that we're going to start with the genders and end with congiuntivo and periodo ipotetico. I still have no idea where we stand with Mandarin, but on the other hand I did no research, so I'll do it in the coming semester. In general I think I must be using the wrong part of my brain. I mean..the information comes in, it stays there, I can use it.. but I feel it's just a bunch of bricks on a building site and not a house being built. I have to dramatically change my approach. I spend a lot of time pretending I study, yet I still feel I don't study at all. I could count on one hand those moments when I actually discovered something in the language and was proud that I understood the rule by myself. If you read so far, thank you! :-) I would have some random questions and if someone would have the time and know the answer, I'd really appreciate their help: - is there any reason as to why for instance: matter (shi4,事), to be (shi4,是), rock (shi2,石), food (shi2, 食) time (shi2, 时) ten (shi2,十)share the same syllable/stem? I know that for nouns and verbs it is common to add the second syllable (时候, 事情..).. But is there any historical reason as to why they share the same syllable? I'm trying to figure out a system behind all of this. Is it just random? - I know that if 2 or more 3rd tones follow, the rule should be, that except for the last one (depending on when you pause for your breath) all the preceding ones change to 2nd tone... or if 不 is followed by another 4th tone it changes to 2nd.. but why? No one ever told me why! :-)) Again.. I'm trying to find the logic behind this. I know some people might learn things easier when they're told.. don't worry about the rules, just learn it as it is.. but I like knowing the rules and don't mind remembering them, plus it makes much more sense afterwards. - how do you express the conditional mood in Mandarin. how would you say: I eat Vs I would eat if..? - what do Chinese consider to be a good command of Chinese language by a native speaker? In other words..We consider a Slovak person to have a good command of Slovak if: he makes no grammar errors, uses a lot of Latin/Greek based words (correctly!) and his speech has a nice flow. What about Mandarin? Plans for winter brake: - review everything (characters, grammar, dialogues) - write dictations - do the vocab from the upcoming lessons and try to understand the grammar by myself - find a living Chinese person willing to help me :-) - chat with friends over the internet - try to talk to myself in Mandarin and ask the problems I encounter here Edited by Vlad on 05 June 2008 at 9:28am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Vlad Trilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member Czechoslovakia foreverastudent.com Joined 6575 days ago 443 posts - 576 votes 2 sounds Speaks: Czech*, Slovak*, Hungarian*, Mandarin, EnglishC2, GermanC2, ItalianC1, Spanish, Russian, Polish, Serbian, French Studies: Persian, Taiwanese, Romanian, Portuguese | Message 3 of 17 29 January 2008 at 2:31pm | IP Logged |
|
Thank you,
I completely forgot about Chinesepod. They are really great. I have been listening to them once in a while out of interest, but maybe I should think about using it for more studies. It's not a bad idea though to try visualise and not worry about the grammar. Edited by Vlad on 29 January 2008 at 3:13pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| solidsnake Diglot Senior Member China Joined 7032 days ago 469 posts - 488 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin | Message 4 of 17 29 January 2008 at 4:12pm | IP Logged |
|
Bad news. There is no systematic approach to modern Chinese grammar. If only it were that easy..
Instead, you must learn the usages of each and every piece of vocab (20,000 words including 俚语 plus about 6000 成语，谚语，歇后语，格言combined)by rote as well each of their common pairings. This is precisely why the language takes 5 years of 10 hours a day of studying to master. Its not difficult, just extremely time-consuming and very few people love it enough to see it through to the end. Edited by solidsnake on 29 January 2008 at 4:13pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| aru-aru Triglot Senior Member Latvia Joined 6448 days ago 244 posts - 331 votes Speaks: Latvian*, English, Russian | Message 6 of 17 30 January 2008 at 3:20pm | IP Logged |
|
I am going to give you the advice I give everyone: do more listening. It's like a remedy for all problems.
The shi shi shi's are random, as far as i know. There used to be much less homonyms than there are now - you should try to find articles on classical chinese phonology or middle chinese phonology, but in short, it seems that chinese has been dropping syllable endings like -k, -p etc (cantonese still keeps them) and other stuff that used to make the difference, thus drasticaly increasing the number of homonyms during last centuries(?) As a result, you get around 20 of shi's. You cannot confuse them in a context. About the poor little 不 changing the tone, i guess it's for the easiness of pronounciation. In a rapid speech it'll sound like 0 tone, not like 2nd tone. And do not forget about 一 changing the tone as well. The good news is, it'll become natural soon and you will not have to think about not forgetting to change the tone. If you do more listening, it will soon stick. Why don't you give some audio courses a try? Dr. Pimsleurs course, if your library has it, ain't too bad - boring as hell, but it gets you speaking a bit. Or at least doing quick translation in your head, which can be useful. In fact, anything with a transcript and translation will do, check what chinese textbooks your university library has and grab the tapes! Some of my classmates have used chinese soap operas, and with quite a lot of success: story is easy to follow, uses simple everyday vocabulary, has subtitles. Or go for chinese music, i've learned some weird vocabulary this way (no tones though). http://www.chinese-tools.com/songs/song/172/wenbie.html http://www.chinese-tools.com/songs/song/16/silu.html http://www.chinese-tools.com/songs/song/53/tonghua.html 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| melitu Groupie United States Joined 6151 days ago 42 posts - 38 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin, Japanese | Message 7 of 17 31 January 2008 at 2:20am | IP Logged |
|
Shi - I think looking for a connection among the shi's is sort of like asking what's the connection between two, too, and to in English. It's interesting you selected "shi"... I once came across someone who wrote a fairly good-sized paragraph with almost all shi's.
Tone changes - The general rationale behind the tone rules is to make it easier to say. Just try saying a bunch of two third tones in a row *as third tones*. It's quite difficult. Apply the "change to 2nd tone" and you'll find it much easier. There was a ChinesePod lesson a while back that has a few examples: http://chinesepod.com/lessons/tone-rule-two-third-tones/disc ussion Conditionals - There are several constructions for conditionals... grammar book with lots of examples? A basic construction is with ru2 guo3 (如果) with or without dehua4 (的话): 如 果 我 wo 有 you 钱 qian 的话 ， 我 wo 会 hui 买 mai (de) 更 geng 多 duo. 如 果 我 wo 有 you 钱 qian ， 我 wo 会 hui 买 mai (de) 更 geng 多 duo. 我 wo 有 you 钱 qian 的话 ， 我 wo 会 hui 买 mai (de) 更 geng 多 duo. If I had money, I would buy even more. (all 3 are ok) You can also see 如果 with jiu4 就 quite often: 如 果 便 pian 宜 yi , 我 wo 就 jiu 买 mai 两 liang 个 ge. If it's inexpensive, I would/will buy two. There are other constructions as well. Anyways, I second aru-aru's 'this is where lots of exposure and listening come in'. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| aru-aru Triglot Senior Member Latvia Joined 6448 days ago 244 posts - 331 votes Speaks: Latvian*, English, Russian | Message 8 of 17 31 January 2008 at 10:10am | IP Logged |
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-Eating_Poet_in_the_Stone_D en
Melitu, i think this might be the shi shi shi paragraph that you mean. 1 person has voted this message useful |
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
