|
 |
’the’ before a group of people | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Stassri Newbie Korea, South Joined 4099 days ago 23 posts - 29 votes Speaks: Korean* | Message 1 of 7 09 September 2014 at 6:36pm | IP Logged | |||||
|
First, here are some rules I know (or think I know) thus far (whether to put a 'the' before a group of people / things when it is a common noun) :
* A dog is a faithful animal. - correct * Dogs are faithful animals. - correct * The dog is a faithful animal. - correct * The dogs are faithful animals. - wrong, unless I'm referring to a limited group of dogs out of all the dogs in the world. (correct me if I'm mistaken) * A mathematician is an introvert person. - correct * Mathematicians are introvert people. - correct * The mathematician is an introvert person - wrong, unless I'm referring to one single mathematician. (correct me if I'm mistaken) * The mathematicians are introvert people. - wrong, unless I'm referring to a limited group of mathematicians out of all the mathematicians in the world. (correct me if I'm mistaken) My problem is that I'm confused about when to put the definite article 'the' before a group of people which is a proper noun, I mean when it is a people, a nation, a race, a religious group, and so forth. I did some google search and consulted a couple of wikipedia articles and here is what i've found out : * The Korean people - 'the' is present (because 'people' is singular, as I understand it, correct me if I'm mistaken) * The Japanese people - 'the' is present (because 'people' is singular, as I understand it, correct me if I'm mistaken) * Koreans - 'the' is absent * The Japanese - 'the' is present (because 'Japanese' is singular, as I understand it, correct me if I'm mistaken) * The Chinese - 'the' is present (because 'Chinese' is singular, as I understand it, correct me if I'm mistaken) * Americans - 'the' is absent * Canadians - 'the' is absent * Russians - 'the' is absent * The Spanish people - 'the' is present (because 'people' is singular, as I understand it, correct me if I'm mistaken) * The Spaniards / Spaniards - 'the' is present or absent (?) * The Mongols - 'the' is present * The Poles - 'the' is present * Musilims - 'the' is absent * Whites / the whites - 'the' is present or absent (?) * Blacks/ the blacks - 'the' is present or absent (?) I can't seem to infer a general rule from the examples above. So my question is, do you have to memorize all those instances of 'the's by heart? Or is there a rule or thumb which can be applied to this problem? Edited by Stassri on 09 September 2014 at 6:46pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7206 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 2 of 7 09 September 2014 at 7:32pm | IP Logged | |||||
|
I think you can make it a lot easier on yourself and you'll sound more natural if you try to stick to pluralized
forms when generalizing. E.G. Don't say, "the Korean people", just say "Koreans". Back to a few of your examples: Dogs are faithful (animals). (animals is optional - everyone knows they are animals, just like everyone knows the Koreans are people. Mathematicians are introverts. There are a few special cases, such as "the Japanese are good at mathematics". Similarly, "the Chinese are also good at math". "The Spanish are too". All of the other cases you sited could be simplified like: Blacks are good at math. Whites are introverts. Edited by luke on 09 September 2014 at 7:34pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| robarb Nonaglot Senior Member United States languagenpluson Joined 5060 days ago 361 posts - 921 votes Speaks: Portuguese, English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, French Studies: Mandarin, Danish, Russian, Norwegian, Cantonese, Japanese, Korean, Polish, Greek, Latin, Nepali, Modern Hebrew | Message 3 of 7 09 September 2014 at 7:33pm | IP Logged | |||||
|
It is very difficult or impossible to come up with general rules about this. Often both forms with 'the' and without
'the' are used, but mean slightly different things. Other times, some speakers can use 'the' while other speakers never would. Most of your sentences are "correct," but that doesn't mean all speakers would use them. For instance, "The dog is a faithful animal" is not wrong, but I (as an American) would always instead say "Dogs are faithful animals" to mean the same thing. I am doubtful of your analysis in which it usage of 'the' depends on singular vs. plural. 'The' can be used for both singular and plural nouns, and Korean, Chinese, etc. can be either singular or plural. That said, some rules (which may have exceptions): 1: "the" is used to clarify ambiguous words: because 'Americans' unambiguously refers to American people, we don't use "the." But as 'Chinese' could refer to Chinese anything (food, language, etc) we must say "The Chinese" to refer in general to the people. 2: Usually, when the name of a country's people is a plural that ends in -s, we don't use "the." Thus, "Germans," but "The French." 3: When referring to a past kingdom, empire, or civilization, "the" is almost always used. Thus, "The Romans" refers to ancient Romans, while "Romans" more likely refers to people from Rome, Italy. "The Egyptians" are ancient Egyptians, but "Egyptians" are from the modern country. 4: When referring to a "race" of people, we don't use "the." Thus, "Whites," "Blacks," "Asians." 5: When referring to a religion, we never have to use 'the.' If we use 'the,' it has a slight connotation of singling them out, even might be a bit derogatory. So we normally say "Christians" and "Jews," but anti-semitic people may be more likely to say "The Jews" 6: When using the word 'people,' you can use 'the' or not, but the meaning is different. "The Korean people" means the entire Korean nation--the population of the Korean world. "Korean people" is less specific. It could mean the entire Korean nation or it could mean Korean people biologically speaking, or it could mean Koreans in my city. These are only rules of thumb; you probably have to hear/read these types of expressions many times to really get a sense for what sounds right. Edited by robarb on 09 September 2014 at 7:35pm 8 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| smallwhite Pentaglot Senior Member Australia Joined 5309 days ago 537 posts - 1045 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin, French, Spanish | Message 4 of 7 09 September 2014 at 7:46pm | IP Logged | |||||
|
I THINK it depends on whether the word is only an adjective, or is both an adjective and a noun. "Chinese" is an adjective ("a Chinese person") but not a noun (can't say "I am a Chinese" or "I saw a Chinese"). So you have to say "the Chinese people blah blah blah" and you cannot say "Chineses blah blah blah".
Now, how do you know which adjectives are not also nouns - I don't know :D 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5566 days ago 938 posts - 1840 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 5 of 7 09 September 2014 at 11:59pm | IP Logged | |||||
|
'The mathematician is an introvert[ed] person' is not entirely wrong for the general
class of mathematicians, however, it is archaic. One sees such constructions in Victorian usage. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Gemuse Senior Member Germany Joined 4083 days ago 818 posts - 1189 votes Speaks: English Studies: German | Message 6 of 7 10 September 2014 at 1:46am | IP Logged | |||||
IMHO we can say: The Chinese are hardworking. The Germans are risk averse. The French are rude. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| AlexTG Diglot Senior Member Australia Joined 4639 days ago 178 posts - 354 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Latin, German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 7 of 7 10 September 2014 at 7:54am | IP Logged | |||||
It can't be due to the singular because it would be just as natural to say "The Indo- European peoples". Also note that a plural verb form attaches to people, "The Japanese people are awesome" not, "the Japanese people is awesome". None the less, this only works if you're thinking about "The Japanese people" as a single entity.
In all of these cases you can use "the" or not depending on context. For instance we might imagine that if America gets invaded again by their northern neighbours some will shout "The Canadians are coming, the Canadians are coming", yet we'd say "Canadians talk funny". You often hear racist dicks say "The Muslims won't integrate", but it's hard to imagine someone saying "The Muslims believe in Allah", it's got to be "Muslims believe in Allah", unless about a specific set of Muslims, "The Jews in this household believe in Yaweh, the Muslims believe in Allah". As a previous poster said, placing "the" before religions can sound like singling them out and be derogatory (a la my Muslim example above). This is also the case with races: "The Blacks are ruining the neighborhood". "(the) Blacks" and "(the) Whites" is much less common than "black people" and "white people", possible because turning adjectives into nouns feels a bit awkward. Edited by AlexTG on 10 September 2014 at 10:58am 2 persons have voted this message useful |
If you wish to post a reply to this topic you must first login. If you are not already registered you must first register
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
