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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| Raincrowlee Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 6702 days ago 621 posts - 808 votes  Speaks: English*, Mandarin, Korean, French Studies: Indonesian, Japanese | Message 33 of 49 01 May 2010 at 3:26pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
No. I haven't read that either. Anyway, the time frame would be different. Menzies was talking about the Zheng He voyages at the beginning of the Ming Dynasty. This was a fairly serious book, and had lots of pictures. I can't remember the title of it, and a Google search isn't helping. It was one of those quirky little theories that intrigued me and stuck with me. Can't say for sure what to think of it. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| quendidil Diglot Senior Member Singapore Joined 6312 days ago 126 posts - 142 votes Speaks: Mandarin, English* Studies: Japanese | Message 34 of 49 01 May 2010 at 4:25pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Besides Menzies, the closest thing I can think of is the link between Fusang and America. If this theory is to be given any credence, the timing of Hui Shen's visit to Fusang would correspond more closely to the classic age of the Mayan Empire IMO.
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| Kounotori Triglot Senior Member Finland Joined 5344 days ago 136 posts - 264 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, Russian Studies: Mandarin | Message 35 of 49 01 May 2010 at 6:18pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
One thing to remember is that language =/= genetics. While your idea sounds very romantic, it hardly has any basis in reality. It's a lot more likely that an IE language was imposed on your ancestors. It's also worth noting here that Finns and Hungarians, or even Finns and Estonians, aren't that closely related to each other. Actually, in the case of Finns and Hungarians, there's no genetic relationship at all. Our languages are related, but our peoples have nothing to do with each other. The majority of Finns are more closely related to the English and the Dutch than to Hungarians. --- One language mystery that hasn't been that phenomenally popular on the internet concerns the English language itself. Namely, why was the influence of Celtic languages on English so pathetically weak? I know, not as exciting as dead Etruscans or Mayans whipped into space, but a titillating mystery nonetheless, and made the more interesting by all the conflicting evidence. So here's the deal: Starting from the early 5th century AD, Celtic Britain was raided and settled by invading Germanic peoples, the Angles, the Saxons and the Jutes, which formed the people today known as the Anglo-Saxons. The Anglo-Saxons had arrived in relatively small numbers. So small in fact, that they actually should've adopted the local Celtic language (which is a usual occurrence, e.g. the Viking invaders of Normandy quickly adopted French). So the question is, why didn't they? Another puzzling thing is the fact that modern English has a dearth of Celtic loanwords. Of course there are words such as plaid, but that and many others are late borrowings. Here I'm talking about words that were already borrowed to Old English. Again, it is usual that a conquering people, when imposing its own language on the native population, also adopts words from the native language(s). The Vikings, when they came to England, contributed many words to English and even influenced the development of English grammar. The Normans, when they came in the 11th century, also provided English with a huge amount of loanwords. So why didn't the Celts have such an influence on English? To clarify, Celtic did have an influence on English, but it was weak. Many place names of Celtic origin have been identified, but on the other hand Celtic influence on English vocabulary has been limited: there are a few words that are thought to have come from Celtic, but even then most of them are of doubtful etymology. Some known Celtic loanwords that go back to the Old English period are crag (Welsh: craig) and wan (Welsh: gwan). Multiple hypotheses have been presented to explain the reason why the influence of the native Celtic languages has been so restricted: - The Celts and the Anglo-Saxons were on relatively friendly terms, but their ways of life didn't differ much, so there was neither a need nor any motivation to borrow words. Apparently all the necessary words already existed in the Old English language. - There was conscious avoidance of Celts. Either they were viewed as inferiors or too different, maybe even snobbish (after all, the Celts were Romanized). And you don't borrow words from a people you hate. - The Celts were displaced to such a degree that they never had a chance to influence English. This is supported by modern genetic studies, which have shown that at least half of the indigenous Celtic male population was displaced. But even if the Celts migrated en masse, then why didn't the Celts that were left behind influence English? They were still presumably numerous, at least compared with the Anglo-Saxons. One interesting thing is that several members of Anglo-Saxon nobility have had clearly Celtic personal names. Cædwalla (ruled Wessex 685-688), Ceadda, Ceawlin, Cumbra, all of them are Celtic names. If Celts were indeed enemies, then isn't it strange that Anglo-Saxon kings gave their children Celtic names? This suggests that the nobilities of the Anglo-Saxons and the Celts had intermarried and had had intimate cultural contacts with each other. However, if the later Norman nobility made its impact on the English language grand, then why didn't the Celts? They surely seem to have had the opportunity. Edited by Kounotori on 01 May 2010 at 6:29pm 8 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Raincrowlee Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 6702 days ago 621 posts - 808 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin, Korean, French Studies: Indonesian, Japanese | Message 36 of 49 01 May 2010 at 6:48pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
True, but I tend to look at things through the lens of "would this work in a story?" Which is why this piqued my interest. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6703 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 37 of 49 01 May 2010 at 7:12pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
As far as I know there isn't a shred of evidence for Chinese expeditions to America. But Zhung He's seven big expeditions reached all areas in Southern Asia and he even came down to Zanzibar. At the big exposition telling about him which I saw in Barcelona last year there was a painting of a couple of Chinese men and a giraffe). The main reason that they didn't have more impact is that the emperor who succeeded Yongle, Hongxi, during his one year long reign decided to stop all travel abroad (maybe he thought that they were too expensive,maybe because he just didn't like foreigners), and his successor, Xuande, only sent out one expedition more under which Xhing He died. What is more, Hongxi (or Xuande?) had the official reports from the expeditions destroyed, leaving only some sparse remains including one stelae inscribed before Zhong Le left on his final voyage .. this is quoted from memory, so I don't remember why this stelae escaped.
It doesn't matter when the golden period of the Mayas was. The important thing that the culture has evolved gradually from a very early age, and at least at El Mirador site from around 800 BC all major architectural characteristics were already developed, including the pyramids. The writing can according to Wikipedia be traced back to a site named San Bartolo and dates from around 300 BC (more than 1000 yeras before the T'ang, but admittedly not far in time from the Han)), and apart from having hieroglyphics as one of its features it doesn't have much in common with Chinese writing. Which of course doesn't exclude that some Chinese may have arrived in the Americas, but I haven't seen anything about a proof that it should have happened. I have of course looked up the links to texts about the fabled country Fuang. One source writes this: It appears frequently in poetry and around the 2nd century BC, one Han emperor is said to have sent an expedition to colonize this land. Where was the legendary land of Fusang? Eighteenth century mapmakers placed it in North America, usually near what is today Washington or Vancouver. These cartographers, most notably De L’Isle and Zatta, mapped Fusang based on a popular essay written by the French orientalist historian Josepth de Guignes in his 1761 article “Le Fou-Sang des Chinois est-il l’Amérique? ” De Guignes was a dubious historian at best, but with this he may have been on to something. Fusang is most fully described on by the 6th century itinerant monk Hui Shen. And later in the same blogpost: There is some, but not significant, historical evidence to support the idea that the Chinese were active in Ancient America. Ancient Chinese coins, ship anchors (James R. Moriarty of the University of San Diego), and other relics have been discovered along the American coast – some dating back as much as 2,000 years! Also, Hui Shen’s descriptions do correspond somewhat with what we know of the New World around 450 AD Most newer comments are however more sceptical. The complete text (in translation) can allegedly be found here (though I have so far only found comments with fragments of it, - and fairly naive comments, I have to say). Edited by Iversen on 01 May 2010 at 8:34pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| quendidil Diglot Senior Member Singapore Joined 6312 days ago 126 posts - 142 votes Speaks: Mandarin, English* Studies: Japanese | Message 38 of 49 01 May 2010 at 8:08pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Which is why I added the caveat "If this theory is to be given any credence". As for the lack of Celtic influence in English, I think the same could be said for Gaulish in modern day France. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Raincrowlee Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 6702 days ago 621 posts - 808 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin, Korean, French Studies: Indonesian, Japanese | Message 39 of 49 01 May 2010 at 8:17pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Actually I said that.
I've also heard that one of the motivations for emperor Yongle sending Zheng He out on the expeditions was that he claimed that the previous emperor, his nephew, had been lost and the expeditions were in part to find him. Of course, Yongle had killed him and it was part of his cover-up.
Actually quendidil said that. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6703 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 40 of 49 01 May 2010 at 8:35pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Sorry, all those quotes within quotes have confused me .. I'll clean up my message ASAP
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