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German Perfekt vs. Imperfekt | ||
Tags: Verbs/Conjugation | German | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Glarfugus Newbie United States Joined 4938 days ago 3 posts - 3 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German | Message 1 of 14 25 June 2011 at 6:49am | IP Logged | ||
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I know the general differences in usage between the Perfekt and Imperfekt, but conversational German isn't entirely clear sometimes, so I must ask: Are more verbs than just haben or sein used conversationally with the Imperfekt?
ex. Would one be more likely to say "Es gab..." to mean "There were"? Would such a practice be more standard to Northern Germany than Southern Germany/Austria? Many thanks. Edited by Glarfugus on 25 June 2011 at 6:49am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| christian Senior Member United States Joined 5251 days ago 111 posts - 135 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Japanese, German | Message 2 of 14 25 June 2011 at 7:20am | IP Logged | ||
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Es gab is used.
Also the modal verbs are usually in the imperfekt. As in konnte, sollte, musste, etc. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| LanguageSponge Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5767 days ago 1197 posts - 1487 votes Speaks: English*, German, French Studies: Welsh, Russian, Japanese, Slovenian, Greek, Italian | Message 3 of 14 25 June 2011 at 11:23am | IP Logged | ||
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Haben and sein and the most common - I've hardly ever heard "ich bin gewesen" and until
a couple of years ago, I would have had to think about what the past participle of "sein" even was. Also, in the sense of "there was, there were", "es gab" always seems to be used - the perfect tense never seems to be used in this context. Also, in this same sense, it is invariably "es gab" - "es gaben" or something similar doesn't exist. The modal verbs are often used in the imperfect tense rather than the perfect - ich konnte, ich sollte, ich musste, ich wollte, ich durfte - it feels a bit awkward to me to use them in the perfect tense. Lassen may also be another one - it is half considered a modal verb in itself in certain contexts, most noteably in the sense of "to get something done" - Ich ließ mir die Haare schneiden versus Ich habe mir die Haare schneiden lassen... both of those sound fine to me, but wait until the natives come along. I imagine the imperfect would be used here just for convenience - it's shorter and therefore less effort. Also, I'll put it here so that any natives can correct me if I'm wrong, but in this context of "getting something done" - having your eyes tested, having an X-ray done, getting your hair cut or your computer repaired, the past participle of "lassen" is the infinitive - Ich habe meinen Computer reparieren lassen. Whereas in other contexts, the past participle is "gelassen" - Ich habe meine Schlüssel in der Küche gelassen - I left my keys in the kitchen. Hope that helps somewhat Jack 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5767 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 4 of 14 25 June 2011 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | ||
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Es gab/es hat gegeben - it depends on the speaker which is used. I think I use Perfekt in normal speech and Imperfekt when I am telling a story about the past or in writing.
And, yes, it means there was/there had been/there used to be. I wouldn't bat an eyelash at a question like "Was hat es denn heute bei euch zu Mittag gegeben?" but "Was gab es denn heute bei euch zu Mittag?" sounds a bit awkward to me, even though I am sure many people would say it like that. It's a bit difficult to explain, but using the Perfekt links an action to the present, and when I ask a person personal questions I would want to establish that link, and "es gab/es hat gegeben" often is used that way. But that may just be me. Either way, in written language you should use Imperfekt and in spoken language you'll be find using either, or even better imitating the tenses your conversation partner uses. Sein-Verben are also used in the Perfekt in everyday conversation. "Wir sind ins Kino gegangen und haben uns Piraten der Karibik angeschaut." "Du bist ja völlig verschwitzt! Bist du gerannt?" The only exceptions I know are sein and stehen. I am not sure about this, but think about it this way: The current trend to replace Imperfekt by Perfekt in the spoken language is an attempt to avoid ambiguity. Because most (or all?) conjugations have only consonants or schwas + consonants, it isn't easy to tell them apart in the spoken language, especially when you have to store the information about the pronoun, then possibly have some other words, then the meaning of the verb, and only then comes the conjugation ending to work with your pronoun. It simply is easier to use the Perfekt tense and you can mumble to your heart's content. But that means that Imperfekt forms are used less frequently, and that means that people don't always remember them when they speak, and that means that they end up favouring the Perfekt tense even more. Of course, because sein and haben work as the auxiliaries with which we form the Perfekt/Plusquamperfekt tenses, we do know the forms - and the forms are easier to tell apart from each other than forms of your average verb, too. Apart from Perfekt form being the same as the respective Imperfekt forms with the addition of a past participle ... Stehen is a bit different, because there are stehen (+sein) and gestehen (+haben) which have the same part participle, gestanden. Because you often hear "er/sie hat gestanden" (he/she confessed), I noticed that people sometimes get a bit confused when they want to say somebody stood somewhere and rather use the Imperfekt form. Agree with Jack on modal verbs. Wollen and können can be used in the Perfekt tense if you don't use a full modal verb construction, like in "Ich hab das nicht gewollt!" (I didn't mean to!) Lassen as in "etwas machen lassen" is usually used in the Perfekt in spoken language. It sounds really awkward to me to use the Imperfekt there because of the kind of information you share with that construction. I can't explain it well, but "etwas machen lassen" usually means "to have somebody do something for you" (usually you pay for it) and that leads to a tangible result that is still there in the present. Edited by Bao on 25 June 2011 at 10:18pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| lingoleng Senior Member Germany Joined 5299 days ago 605 posts - 1290 votes | Message 5 of 14 25 June 2011 at 11:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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Another aspect: It is not very clear what conversational means. In many cases the medium of real life conversation is the dialect, and my dialect e.g. (Bavarian) does not have a systematic Indikativ Imperfekt (there are some rudiments like war, wollte), so when I "converse" I just don't have an imperfect, no thank you, not for me, and the few surviving forms don't make a difference of meaning. So this would more or less be the "normal" situation for us in Bavaria and Austria.
When I talk to people who don't understand my dialect (other German speakers, usually) I use a phonetically normalized Bavarian (still no Imperfekt/Präteritum), and only when thrown into more formal situations I switch to a "real" standard Hochdeutsch, with fully developed tense system. One of the latter variants may be what people consider normal conversational German, but for me, at least, it is a necessity, a kind of tool for bridging gaps between mutually incomprehensible dialects, some swinging between dialect and standard language, and not my primary medium of conversation. (When I write, things are completely different, of course.) Edited by lingoleng on 25 June 2011 at 11:06pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5767 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 6 of 14 26 June 2011 at 1:02am | IP Logged | ||
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Oh, I should have added that I don't speak any dialect and people can't tell where I'm from, but if there is any influence in my German it's from the Southwest.
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| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5321 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 7 of 14 26 June 2011 at 1:25am | IP Logged | ||
I'm assuming that you're referring to expressions like "ich bin gestanden/gesessen" which are the de facto standard in Southern Germany, but are not acceptable in "Hochdeutsch." For more informationn on this see this (German) Zwiebelfisch article. Edited by Doitsujin on 26 June 2011 at 6:50am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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