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Use of alveolar approximants in Gaelic | ||
Tags: Gaelic (Irish) | Pronunciation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| mjhowie1992 Diglot Newbie AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5181 days ago 24 posts - 27 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Mandarin | Message 1 of 6 25 June 2011 at 3:40pm | IP Logged |
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Through listening to various recordings of the Irish Gaelic language (Gaeilge), I have
noticed that many people pronounce the letter "r" commonly as a Alveolar Approximant (ɹ), as it is in English (for the most part), instead of either a Alveolar Flap (ɾ) or Trill (r). I have also noticed that some tend to combine the two different kinds of pronunciation. This trend contradicts many different courses which I have seen that states the letter "r" in Gaelic is to be pronounced as a flap or trill. I have supplied some examples below: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYrOn7j7eo&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD-_l5p3MzI&feature=related In the second example, I notice the first lady speaking uses trills/flaps, as compared with the second lady, who tends to use approximants, trills and flaps, and the man, who predominantly uses approximants. However, I have not noticed this trend in any recordings of Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig). I have noticed that an alveolar flap or trill is predominantly used. Can anyone enlighten me as to why this trend is happening in Irish Gaelic? Is this just an influence of English upon the younger generation? Also, I apologise if some cannot see the I.P.A. characters used. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes  Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 2 of 6 25 June 2011 at 6:33pm | IP Logged |
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Trills are very rare in Scottish Gaelic, and definitely not taught to learners as standard.
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| Cabaire Senior Member Germany Joined 5600 days ago 725 posts - 1352 votes | Message 3 of 6 25 June 2011 at 11:46pm | IP Logged |
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In traditional Gaoidhealg I think an post-alveolar flap is used. In neo-Gaeilge of course many learners use their native approximant.
Far more important than the question to use either a trill or a flap is to maintain the distinction between slender and broad r (the r in fear is different from the r in fir). The second, palatalized r-sound has a somehow ʒ-ish quality in my ear. There are many phonetic detoriations in the Irish language, when Irishman try to learn this phonetically richer language. Edited by Cabaire on 25 June 2011 at 11:47pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 4 of 6 26 June 2011 at 12:13am | IP Logged |
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I have the same problem. Slender "r" can be pronounced in many ways: palatalized flap,
ʒ or something else, sometimes I don't even hear it! The most strange thing was that in songs by Na Casaididh I heard broad "r" (flap) instead of slender. I was told I had problems either with my ears or with my brain. I can't believe that. Please, listen to these songs and tell me what kind of "r" you hear. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCHyKWvxAY0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWo8PY2CpUo I pronounce alveolar trill (broad) and palatalized flap (slender). In most cases the difference between broad and slender consonants is obvious. Edited by Марк on 26 June 2011 at 12:14am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Cabaire Senior Member Germany Joined 5600 days ago 725 posts - 1352 votes | Message 5 of 6 26 June 2011 at 12:27am | IP Logged |
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I have problems to hear the sound differences, when a group of people is singing, so I cannot help with the song.
But isn't it sufficient, when you pronounce fear as something like фьэръ, but fir as фьирь? As a Slave your language makes the same distinctions as the Irish language. PS. According to this the Na Casaidigh are traditional native speakers, so I am assured they make the necessary sound distinctions. Edited by Cabaire on 26 June 2011 at 12:32am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 6 of 6 26 June 2011 at 12:33am | IP Logged |
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I do pronounce them like фяр and фирь, but I was suprised when I heard "ar" pronounced
like "эр" and not like "эрь". 1 person has voted this message useful |
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