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Order of irregular words in dictionaries | ||
Tags: Dictionaries | Verbs/Conjugation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| yong321 Groupie United States yong321.freeshe Joined 5543 days ago 80 posts - 104 votes  Studies: Spanish | Message 1 of 4 04 July 2011 at 4:39am | IP Logged |
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I have a few French and Spanish dictionaries. The list of irregular verbs does not list them in alphabetic order. To find the one I want, I find the word in the main part of the dictionary. The entry has a number in brackets. Then I look up the word according to the number in the irregular verb list. Why can't they be listed alphabetically?
My German dictionary lists them alphabetically. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| jarm Newbie Australia Joined 4913 days ago 33 posts - 55 votes Speaks: English* | Message 2 of 4 04 July 2011 at 6:05am | IP Logged |
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For French, maybe you could look into getting a copy of Bescherelle's complete guide to conjugating
12,000 French verbs. The main section isn't alphabetically listed, but the index is. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3 of 4 04 July 2011 at 10:11am | IP Logged |
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On the internet there is a site called Verbix which gives complete tables for a lot of verbs in a lot of languages. You have to enter the infinitive (though in a few cases it is the 1. person singular present tense) and then you can see all forms of that verb for scores of languages. It is however problematic to use it with non-Roman alphabets.
I have a few books of the Bescherelle type, most notably a big fat book with complete tables for Russian (Barron) - but it is not handy enough to be used regularly. Besides I have seen verb conjugation booklets in several languages in bookstores, so they certain exist - just not as part of ordinary dictionaries. I know the system with codes at each verb which refer to a table in the back of the dictionary - this is for instance the system used in my Russian-Danish Gyldendal dictionary (also for nouns and adjective). It gives the necessary information, but the method is not ideal. The point is that the countless sample tables are so numerous because each verb combines a number of characteristics. For instance you need to know whether it has 'hard' or 'soft' endings, whether there is a consonant change in certain forms and whether the accent moves around in the present tense. If I got those three information items in a condensed form already in the main part of the dictionary then I would mostly not need to consult the morphology at the end of the book (except for a small number of totally irregular and/or deficient verbs). A separate list of irregular verbs should generally be in alphabetical order, though it may be practical to quote the "to be" verb and maybe a few others separately with all forms, followed by the rest in alphabetical order. This is for instance the system used in my Latin grammar. But there is one practical thing in Latin, namely 3 or 4 'main forms' for ALL verbs which also happen to characterize the majority of the irregular verbs so well that you can predict any other form. When I learned Latin in school long ago we had to memorize these 3-4 main forms for all the irregular verbs. Boring, but it worked - I still remember most of those verbs. One thing more: the morphological information is normally included in the directionary Target language --> Base language, but not in the other direction, and this is quite irritating. Especially if I have to use dictionaries that were made for speakers of a target language because then I may have first to look a word up in one dictionary and then check its morphology in another. Edited by Iversen on 04 July 2011 at 10:16am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| yong321 Groupie United States yong321.freeshe Joined 5543 days ago 80 posts - 104 votes Studies: Spanish | Message 4 of 4 04 July 2011 at 6:48pm | IP Logged |
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Thanks both. Verbix.com is a very useful site. Sometimes I use conjugation.org. But it's for Spanish only. I emailed them saying you got such a good domain name, why not expand to other languages? I got no reply. Unfortunately, neither Verbix nor Conjugation allows reverse lookup: say I want to find the infinitive of German "bist", and a dictionary doesn't list it as an entry, how do I know I need to check "sein"? The example is too simple here, but you get the idea.
I don't think my original question is answered. It's understandable "it may be practical to quote the 'to be' verb and maybe a few others separately with all forms, followed by the rest in alphabetical order". But the few dictionaries I have, say "VOX Everyday Spanish and English Dictionary", lists words in the "Models for the conjugation of irregular verbs" as follows: 1. sacar 2. mecer 3. zurcir 4. realizar 5. proteger 6. dirigir 7. llegar 8. distinguir 9. delinquir 10. adecuar 11. actuar ... The beginning is like 3 words a group in -ar, -er, -ir order. Later the rule changes. But how am I supposed to know "zurcir" and "actuar" are toward the beginning of these 92 model verbs? I emailed the publisher but got a bounced email. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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