|
 |
Sino-Vietnamese | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
 newyorkeric Diglot Moderator Singapore Joined 6380 days ago 1598 posts - 2174 votes  Speaks: English*, Italian Studies: Mandarin, Malay Personal Language Map | Message 9 of 30 10 May 2011 at 4:42pm | IP Logged | ||
I asked my Vietnamese friend this question once and his reply was: Vietnamese used to be written with Chinese characters? He's very well educated so I'd say that most Vietnamese aren't exposed to it at all. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Nguyen Senior Member Vietnam Joined 5094 days ago 109 posts - 195 votes Speaks: Vietnamese | Message 10 of 30 11 May 2011 at 9:35am | IP Logged | ||
|
We don't learn Chinese characters and only a handful of scholars seem to understand Chu Nom anymore. As far as Cantonese/Classical Chinese sharing loanwords, this is true to an extent. but they are almost indistinguishable in spoken speach moving at full force conversational speed. For some reason the only words I can pick out of a Chinese speakers speech are food descriptions. But then again, we Viets love our food:)
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6583 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 11 of 30 11 May 2011 at 11:20am | IP Logged | ||
Yeah, I don't think anyone will say they're mutually intelligible. But fortunately you don't need to recognize words in running speech in order to get a significant advantage in learning them. Just having that memory hook of "It sounds a bit like ..." will be of use. Not to mention the fact that the same Chinese character will, I suspect, be pronounced similarly in different Vietnamese words, so if you've learned the character for "country", you might have an easier time recognizing and remembering "international", assuming that's also a sinoloan. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Nguyen Senior Member Vietnam Joined 5094 days ago 109 posts - 195 votes Speaks: Vietnamese | Message 12 of 30 11 May 2011 at 3:31pm | IP Logged | ||
|
Perhaps international is quốc tế (nobody says this much). Foreign is nước ngoài
, this is more comon in everyday speach, like the Western News says, foreign policy; nước ngoài is composed of I think Vietnamese words. Nước is the Vietnamese word for water and a nation, ngoài means outside. Not doubting the link but colloquial (I hope I spelled that right) speach in Vietnam is much different than the formal. I think that the Hanoi dialect is a bit closer to what, I understand is actually middle Chinese. Six tones in the North as opposed to five in the South, the North Central has as many as nine I'm told. The funny thing about tones is; if you never heard an outsider tell you your language was tonal, you wouldn't have a clue what they were talking about. You just speak the way you speak. Nobody in Vietnam learns the tones other than our writing system! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| clumsy Octoglot Senior Member Poland lang-8.com/6715Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5179 days ago 1116 posts - 1367 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, Japanese, Korean, French, Mandarin, Italian, Vietnamese Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swedish Studies: Danish, Dari, Kirundi | Message 13 of 30 11 May 2011 at 9:45pm | IP Logged | ||
|
I am studying chu nom (just a little bit).
if you know Chinese you can guess a lot of vocabulary. Vietnam was occupied for 1000 years by China, so no wonder. But it has different grammar. People assume it's related to Cambodian, some claim it is related to Thai. I am not a specialist , but there is a difference that in Chinese you would say :pretty girl" in Vietnamese, on the different hand "girl pretty". 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| audiophile Groupie United States Joined 5117 days ago 44 posts - 81 votes Studies: French | Message 14 of 30 12 May 2011 at 1:25am | IP Logged | ||
|
I am glad that we have native Vietnamese and Chinese joining in this discussion. It is
too bad that Vietnam (unlike Japan) totally abandoned the Chinese writing system about 100 years ago. Otherwise, Vietnamese will find Chinese to be the easiest language to learn. Ari is right. Using mnemonics or Grimm's law will work wonders for a Chinese to learn the Vietnamese in written form. Recently I got a Lonely Planet Cantonese phrase book. Cantonese would be difficult for me to learn if no matching Chinese characters were listed there. The same is for Vietnamese. Grammar wise, I can understand almost all the "grammar points" in Assimil. As I have pointed out, it is very similar to classic Chinese. On scale of things, a different word order is nothing at all, just like if an American needs to drive a car in UK;-) But unfortunately, as Nguyen has pointed out, it would still be very difficult to speak or understand Vietnamese in a real conversation. That is the deal breaker. Quốc tế should be 国际(guo ji) and nước ngoài is "海外hai wai" in Chinese translation. "nuoc" seems to be a native Vietnamese word. But again, the relationship with Chinese is 1-on-1. Further, for memorization purpose, I will memorize it as "域外"("yu wai", external area). This is a good example how a Chinese can use meaningful mnemonics to memorize words. Like Michal Thomas said: you just take your time, and figure it out step by step. For example: for "vi da bo ve truoc khi phim ket thuc" (car je suis rentree avant que le film ne soit termine), I will translate it in Chinese as "唯得弃返先其film结束“(wei de qi fan xian qi film jie su), in which only "bo" is not mapped to a similar-meaning Chinese sound! The only catch is that this memory aid may hurt the pronunciation in the long run. Well, no method is perfect... Edited by audiophile on 12 May 2011 at 2:20am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6583 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 15 of 30 12 May 2011 at 7:27am | IP Logged | ||
Cantonese pronunciation of "外": ngoi6. Seeing as the Vietnamese pronunciation is "ngoài", this looks very much like a loan to me. "际" is "zai3", compared to Vietnamese "tế". This doesn't look too similar, but I think someone mentioned that many characters pronounced with an initial "z" in Cantonese has a "t" in Vietnamese, so I wouldn't be surprised, especially since it's stuck on the obvious loan "Quốc" ("gwok3" in Cantonese). Also notice that the two characters have the same tone in Cantonese, and they seem to share the same tone in Vietnamese, too, if I read the diacritics correctly (i.e. I'm guessing they're related to tone). The "nước", however, is beyond me. "海" in Canto is "hoi2", and I can't think of another character that would fit, either. Maybe a merging of a native root and imported suffix (外)? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| clumsy Octoglot Senior Member Poland lang-8.com/6715Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5179 days ago 1116 posts - 1367 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, Japanese, Korean, French, Mandarin, Italian, Vietnamese Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swedish Studies: Danish, Dari, Kirundi | Message 16 of 30 12 May 2011 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | ||
|
the suffix ngoai when used with a different tone is clearly from Chinese :ngoại quốc = foreign country.
when used with the falling tone it's used as a Vietnamese word I think. But it seems it's an borrowing too, just maybe a little older. trong has the same meaning like trung, meaning middle in Chinese, but it's used as a word in Vietnamese, but trung is only a suffix, trong has special character from chu nom, I think person above me, or in different tread has used it: it's a chinese character for center with dragon. Trung is used in word like Trung Quoc - China. 1 person has voted this message useful |
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
