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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| audiophile Groupie United States Joined 5117 days ago 44 posts - 81 votes  Studies: French | Message 17 of 30 12 May 2011 at 5:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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The "nước", however, is beyond me. "海" in Canto is "hoi2",
Ari: nuoc means 水(water),海means sea.So this is just an equivalent translation, but still very easy to remember.BTW, "nuoc cam" means orange juice. Cam should be the Chinese柑 (gan). I can just say "Toi（我） uong（用） nuoc cam" to order orange juice in restaurant. Very simple structure. Clumsy: ngoai guoc should be 外国(wai guo) Trong/trung is indeed 中(zhong) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Nguyen Senior Member Vietnam Joined 5094 days ago 109 posts - 195 votes Speaks: Vietnamese | Message 18 of 30 13 May 2011 at 12:45am | IP Logged | ||
I want to order orange juice would be Tôi muốn để nước cam. Uống means drink. Tôi uống nước cam, means I drink orange juice. The way most people would actually order would be like this: Xin,cho tôi một ly nước cam. Please, for me one glass of orange juice (literaly identical word order to my translation). Xin means please and can be omited if talking to a waiter, but not a host at a party etc. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| jsun Groupie Joined 5086 days ago 62 posts - 129 votes | Message 19 of 30 13 May 2011 at 7:49am | IP Logged | ||
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http://www.nomfoundation.org/vnpf_new/index.php?IDcat=51
This site is a dictionary of Vietnamese, Vietnamese-Chinese character, Cantonese and Mandarin. I think Chinese loanword of Vietnamese look like Hakka, which is the "Latin" of Middle Chinese. Cantonese and Hakka are somewhat intelligible (can comprehend about 40%). and sound similar if you read character by character. http://www.hkilang.org/NEW_WEB/page/aims Hereby is an audio dictionary of Cantonese, a Cantonese dialect called Wei Tou and Hakka. Every time when you put in a Chinese character, you will see 3 lines and audios. 1st is Cantonese, 2nd is Wei Tou and 3rd is Hakka., nước ngoài according the site is http://www.nomfoundation.org/vnpf/fonts/image/Nom406906.png 外 nước is a Vietnamese local word. National Language 國語 Vietnamese: Quốc ngữ Hakka: gok ngi Cantonese: gwok yu I didn't know what sách meant. A Teochew (a Min language) speaker told me that they call book 册. Cantonese call book as 書 and 册 is more like ancient name for book. Book 册 Vietnamese sách Min: tsheh (essentially, ts = c) Cantonese: cak Hakka: cak I found that Korean also call book as 册. http://book.naver.com/index.nhn Just look at the left-hand corner besides "Naver" Korean 책 - chaek book I tập 1 集 Cantonese: zap I noticed in Tibetan (written) they call book Tibetan: thep It is so crappy that there isn't a database of real Sino-Tibetan. The academic circle just put every Tibeto-Burman languages, Old Chinese, Middle Chinese and Mandarin into the so called "Sino-Tibetan" database. I don't understand why every Tibeto-Burman languages were recorded down while nothing on the Sinitic side except Mandarin were recorded as if others non-Mandarin languages were not existed. As you see from the above examples, it helps everyone understand the Chinese loanword of this Chinese-character circle. Edited by newyorkeric on 13 May 2011 at 10:56am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| audiophile Groupie United States Joined 5117 days ago 44 posts - 81 votes Studies: French | Message 20 of 30 13 May 2011 at 9:04pm | IP Logged | ||
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Sach is 册， In Assimil lesson 38, it says:
Lau roi khong thay co den mua sach 老 者 空 睇 姑 达 买 册 (My "mapped" translation for easy memory. In Chinese, "Lao"老 can mean "very (long)") Also, "quyen"（卷 juan)should also be a Chinese loan word. We still say 卷册 In lesson 38, it also have another sentence that has them together. My "mapping" looks like a regular Chinese sentence: Hom nay toi muon mua vai quyen sach 今 日 我 想 买 几 卷 册 BTW, I can't see any meaningful relationship between Tibetan and Mandarin. I even tried to read a book on this topic. But it was so academic and boring that I gave up reading it. Maybe their relationship is like between Persian and English! Edited by audiophile on 13 May 2011 at 9:32pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| jsun Groupie Joined 5086 days ago 62 posts - 129 votes | Message 21 of 30 13 May 2011 at 9:37pm | IP Logged | ||
Modern Tibetan has different grammar from Sinitic languages and I can only relate things on loanword level. And I found Loloish is more fun than Tibetan due to its script. However, the losing of final syllable and development of tones in Lhasa Tibetan is similar to Mandarin. Here's a database of "Sino-Tibetan" with the Sino portion just has Mandarin as modern language.... http://stedt.berkeley.edu/~stedt-cgi/rootcanal.pl For instance , Poison 毒 Tibetan: du (rising tone) written Tibetan: dug Cantonese: duk Hakka: tuk Mandarin: du2 (rising tone) Sino-Vietnamese: độc Edited by jsun on 13 May 2011 at 9:45pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Nguyen Senior Member Vietnam Joined 5094 days ago 109 posts - 195 votes Speaks: Vietnamese | Message 22 of 30 13 May 2011 at 10:27pm | IP Logged | ||
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It is interesting to point out that in the Southern dialect cuốn sách is generally the word for a book with cuốn being the classifier. Classifiers are common in Vietnamese, alot like saying head of cattle, another example is chiếc as in chiếc xe hơi (an automobile).
It's also worth pointing out that the Assimil examples look very unnatural. Is Assimil using native speakers I wonder? I had to think about what this sentence even means "Lau roi khong thay co den mua sach". I think it means I haven't bought books in a long time; however, this sentence would leave most native speakers scratching their heads? Edited by Nguyen on 13 May 2011 at 11:45pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| audiophile Groupie United States Joined 5117 days ago 44 posts - 81 votes Studies: French | Message 23 of 30 14 May 2011 at 2:00am | IP Logged | ||
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Nguyen, thanks for pointing out this Assimil sentence doesn't sound natural to you.
Both authors and the voice talents are all native speakers. The French translation of that sentence is "Cela fait longtemps que je ne vous ai pas vue venir acheter des livres" (it's been a long time since I haven't seen you coming to buy books). That's the bookstore owner talking to a young lady. In case you know any good textbooks that are available in Amazon, please let us know. BTW, I can easily understand the classifier concept. I run into a few in Assimil, and I can easily map them to the Chinese sound. For example, Quyen (book) = 卷(juan); Trai (fruit) = zhi（只）; qua = ge (个); Cay (tree) = Ke (颗), and chiec = 架 (jia). Of course, those are just my "mappings" to help with the word memory. Some may not be the true equivalent. Interestingly, I listened to some FSI Mandarin drills yesterday out of curiosity. It was a mind blowing exercise for me. While every sentence sounds correct, but the learning pace just doesn't sound natural. Chinese should be relaxed and easy-going! I think people would be better off learning Chinese from those long TV shows - it is the emotion that helps the human memory. So I prefer Assmil way - fun and light weight. At least I can learn some French! Edited by audiophile on 14 May 2011 at 2:20am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Qinshi Diglot Senior Member Australia Joined 5754 days ago 115 posts - 183 votes Speaks: Vietnamese*, English Studies: French, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 24 of 30 16 May 2011 at 12:04pm | IP Logged | ||
quyển = 卷 (juan4) trái is a native word for fruit. The SV equivalent is: quả = 果 (guo3) cá = 个 (ge4) cây is a native word for tree. chiếc = 隻 (zhi1) P.S: - nước is a native word meaning water, but can also express a state or country. eg. đất nước literally means land and water but actually represents a country/nation/state. - ngoại quốc is SV (sino-vietnamese) for foreign (country). nước ngoài is the native equivalent whereby the word ngoài is an older borrowing of ngoại. - foreign = ngoại quốc/nước ngoài, whereas domestic = nội địa/trong nước. - quốc tế means international (worldwide). - khu vực (區域) is often used to mean an 'area' or in overseas communities 'suburbs' of land. - 海 (hải) means sea but usually Vietnamese use a native word; biển instead, with bể also meaning sea. hải is still used in many expressions though. Edited by Qinshi on 16 May 2011 at 12:17pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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