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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6583 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes  Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 25 of 30 16 May 2011 at 12:55pm | IP Logged | ||
As usual, the similarities with Cantonese pronunciation is striking, especially if you take some rules into account, like how Cantonese 'z' becomes 't' or 'tr'. It seems like the words were borrowed when Cantonese still differentiated between the sounds that are written 'z' and 'zh' in pinyin, so pinyin 'z' becomes 't' and pinyin 'zh' becomes 'tr'. I'm just guessing here, and it seems not entirely predictable, as the last example in your list shows. Some Cantonese readings: 卷: kyun4 (V: quyển) 果: gwo2 (V: quả) 个 (Trad. 個): go3 (V: cá) (compare with the above. Same sound shift pattern?) 隻: zek6 (V: chiếc) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Qinshi Diglot Senior Member Australia Joined 5754 days ago 115 posts - 183 votes Speaks: Vietnamese*, English Studies: French, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 26 of 30 16 May 2011 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hanyu Pinyin --> Sino Vietnamese
z- usually becomes t- 習 (ze4/tập) 走 (zou3/tẩu) 最 (zui4/tối) but can also become ch- 怎 (zen3/chẩm) zh- usually becomes tr- 中 (zhong1/trung) 長 (zhang3/trưởng) but can also become ch- 只 (zhi3/chỉ) 址 (zhi3/chỉ) 主 (zhu3/chủ) and also gi- 這 (zhe4/giá) ch- usually becomes th- 常 (chang2/thường) 成 (cheng2/thành) but can also become x- 車 (che1/xa) and also tr- 茶 (cha2/trà) 陳 (chen2/trần) x- usually becomes t- 西 (xi1/tây) 小 (xiao3/tiểu) but can also become h- 學 (xue2/học) You might've noticed also that Mandarin tone: 1 is usually the ngang tone in Vietnamese but can also be sắc. 2 is usually the huyền tone in Vietnamese but can also be ngang. 3 is usually the hỏi or ngã tones in Vietnamese. 4 is uaually the sắc or nặng tones in Vietnamese. Of course, Modern Mandarin has merged so many sounds that it's hardly any good comparing them to th modern sino-Vietnamese. Cantonese or other southern Chinese languages would be better. Unfortunately my knowledge of them is very limited. Also, things are further complicated by the fact that Northerners merge d-/gi-/r- into a /z/ sound which is typically y-/ji in Mandarin (no modern Sino-Vietnamese begins with an r- however). Southerners... well let's just say we speak a whole 'nother language haha. Ok not really, but we pronounce things quite differently. Here's a small (ok moderate length) list of the differences between NVn (Northern) and SVn (Southern) pronunciations. * d-/gi-/r- pronounced /z/ in NVn * d-/gi-/v- pronounced /j/ in SVn (although in spelling pronunciations, v- is v-) * ch-/tr- is pronounced the same in NVn, separate in SVn but starting to merge too. * s-/x- is technically pronounced differently in SVn but many merge it into x- like in NVn. * some people in NVn merge l-/n-/nh-, however this is very uncommon. * some people in SVn pronounce v- as w- * -n is pronounced -ng in SVn except for ên/in which become ơn/ưn. (eg. NVn > SVn, Lan > Lang, bàn > bàng, bún > búng) * -t is pronounced -c in SVn except for êt/it which become... you guessed it! ơt/ưt. (eg. NVn > SVn, hát > hác, hút > húc**, một, mộoc**) One thing to note about ** is that they are pronounced so that at the end, your mouth ends in an -m position. * -nh is always pronounced like -n in SVn. Note that only three combinations exist with -nh = -anh/-ênh/-inh. These are respectively pronounced -ăn/-ơn/-ưn in SVn. (eg. mạnh > mặn, mệnh > mợn, minh > mưn) * The pronunciation of âu in NVn is unique. The SVn pronunciation of it is almost identical to NVn's au, which in turn is pronounced like an ao in SVn. * in words with three vowels, in NVn the second vowel is generally the one that is most emphasised. eg. kiỀu, trưỜng whereas it's usually the first in SVn. eg. kIều, TrƯờng * and much much more like ươu simplified to iu in NVn but u in SVn. A LOT MORE to list. My theory as to why -t > -c in SVn has to do with -n > -ng. The position of your mouth with -t is similar to -n, same goes for -c and -ng. SVn speakers sometimes feel as if they speak a less purer and non-standard version of Vn, and NVn can sometimes feel that way about SVn. Nonetheless, the changes are the direct result of several hundreds of years of sound change. SVn is simply a dialect of Vn... NVn too, they are both different standards of the same language. It's like British v American English. Edited by Qinshi on 16 May 2011 at 9:17pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| audiophile Groupie United States Joined 5117 days ago 44 posts - 81 votes Studies: French | Message 27 of 30 08 June 2011 at 8:33pm | IP Logged | ||
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According to a linguist, there are 5000 Chinese based monosyllable word and 40,000 words
used in Vietnamese: 1. Van hoa文化：Am nhac音乐，Van hien文献，Lich su历史，Le nghi礼仪，Van hoc文学，Thi ca诗歌；2. Giao duc教育：Hoc sinh学生，Hoc tap学习，Tieu hoc小学，Dai hoc大学，Trung hoc中学；3. Tong giao宗 教：Phat giao佛教，Hoa thuong和尚，Niet ban涅架，Kito giao基督教；4. Quan su军事：Quan doi军队， Chien dau战斗，Thanh tri城池，Chi buy指挥；5.Tu phap司法：Nguyen cao原告，Bi cao被告，Tham phan审 判，Khoi to起诉；6. Y hoc医学：Cham cuu针灸，Tri lieu治疗，Cao don hoan tan膏丹丸散；7. Kinh to经 济：Thue税，Mon bai门牌，Loi nhuan利润，Cong nong nghiep工农业；8. Chinh tri政治：Che do制度， Chinh thong正统，Ap buc压迫，Ba chu霸主，Cong san共产，Tu ban chu nghia资本主义。 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| papen Newbie United States Joined 5181 days ago 7 posts - 7 votes Speaks: English | Message 28 of 30 15 June 2011 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'm glad that many people are interesting in Vietnamese.
Sino-Vietnamese is closer to Teochew than Cantonese. And the reason why there are many words sound almost the same in the 3 languages (I don't know if I can consider Cantonese and Teochew are languages or dialects) because the origin was from Old and Middle Chinese; And Cantonese retains them better than Mandarin. 海外 = Hải ngoại means oversea 越僑海外 = Việt Kiều Hải Ngoại =Vietnamese oversea pure Vietnamese: 𠊚越渃外 = người Việt nước ngoài = Vietnamese oversea I have studied Mandarin for 3 years and currently self-studying old Vietnamese script (Chữ Nôm 𡨸喃 喃字）
渃 = thủy 水 + nhược 若 ; this one is pure Vietnamese. the left side presents the meaning (water) while the right side is the pronunciation. I guess in the ancient time, people pronounced it as nược, instead of nước another character for it is 匿 which has the square of 國 but it doesn't have meaning of water and the pronunciation is not close enough. for trong; 中 center, inside 沖 (thủy 水 + trong 中) clear (as water) Edited by papen on 15 June 2011 at 2:20pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6583 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 29 of 30 15 June 2011 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | ||
That character is very common in Cantonese. Used to mean "to hide", pronounced "nei1" or with nasal stop "nik1". 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| audiophile Groupie United States Joined 5117 days ago 44 posts - 81 votes Studies: French | Message 30 of 30 24 June 2011 at 5:13am | IP Logged | ||
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http://vny2k.net/vny2k/SiniticVietnamese.htm
Stu Jay found a paper in the above link discussing the close relationship between Vietnamese and Chinese. It makes sense that a few thousand years ago, the southern part of Chinese and Vietnam could be ethnically more closely related. I didn't go through the whole paper, but I would totally agree that Vietnamese language is a close cousin of Chinese for the recent 2500 years. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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