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Will the French ortograph be reformed? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5522 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes  Speaks: Swedish* | Message 9 of 55 16 November 2010 at 3:10pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
This is of course complete bunk. Etymology is highly relevant even in a strictly synchronic perspective. Current related words are related precisely because of common ancestors. Etymological spelling makes those links more obvious. You can of course get by without knowing about these links, but it may help. The most obvious example is perhaps est <-> être. It can also show the link between indigenous French words and later reloans of related Latin roots (for example), such as fête vs. festivité. In addition, the circumflex changes the pronunciation of some vowels. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5522 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 10 of 55 16 November 2010 at 3:14pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
What do your examples have to do with orthography? What you semm to want is to eliminate irregular forms of words, and even regular forms that you somehow don't like (elles se sont lavées ce matin). Edited by Gusutafu on 16 November 2010 at 4:18pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 11 of 55 16 November 2010 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Orthography is for me the set of rules that determine how words are written correctly. This includes what I call grammatical spelling or orthography that concerns specifically the forms that are determined by grammar rules such as gender, number, tense and mode. Grammatical spelling rules say that you write "une maison blanche" and not "une maison blanc", "de grands chevaux" and not "de les grand chevals." Why do we spell the verb aller as vais in "je vais"? Why is "vous aller" a spelling mistake? It should be "vous allez". If that is not orthography, what is it? As I said in my post, the reforms touched upon individual word forms but did not look at grammatically determined forms. As for the question of the past participle complications in pronominal verbs, it is not a question of my liking certain forms or not. If people think that this is simple, I strongly recommend they do a google on "accord du participe passé." My Larousse des difficultés de la langue française devotes eight pages to the subject. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Lucas Pentaglot Groupie Switzerland Joined 5168 days ago 85 posts - 130 votes Speaks: French*, English, German, Italian, Russian Studies: Mandarin | Message 12 of 55 16 November 2010 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
No, Caintear is right: It's an illusion of help...and most people doesn't car about links between latin and french (in addition, it's been a long time the circumflex doesn't change anymore the pronunciation of some vowels in standard french). 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 13 of 55 16 November 2010 at 4:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Although I am not always a great fan of Cainntear's ideas, I do think that calling his contribution complete bunk is exaggerated and above all plain wrong. First of all, one can legitimately call into question the relevance of etymology in the actual synchronic functioning of a language. In a diachronic perspective, etymology is important but looking at language as a system at a point of time, I would argue that the historical links are basically irrelevant. I would argue that the vast majority of people have no idea and don't care where words come from. It is usage that counts. Sure, it's nice to know that the Greek logos underlies the words biology and sociology, but one could just say that in English the suffix -ology means the science of. We use the suffix -er to indicate an agent or an occupation as in teacher, runner, leader, etc. Who knows or cares where it comes from? Secondly, as for the circumflex indicating a difference of pronunciation, that is really no longer the case today. Can somebody provide some examples where that distinction is phonologically relevant? Edited by s_allard on 16 November 2010 at 5:31pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5522 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 14 of 55 16 November 2010 at 4:47pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I know it certainly helps me, so how can you state this? And the issue is not merely whether it "helps", but whether etymology has any sort of synchronos relevance at all. The anser is that of course it has. Each word does not exist in a vacuum and writing does not fill the sole purpose of recording the spoken language. Then we would all switch to IPA in an instant. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Lucas Pentaglot Groupie Switzerland Joined 5168 days ago 85 posts - 130 votes Speaks: French*, English, German, Italian, Russian Studies: Mandarin | Message 15 of 55 16 November 2010 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
The fact that most circumflexes are related to an old latin "est" actually helps (not only you, but everybody that knows a few words in another roman languange) to remember that some words are written with a circunflex. But saying that circumflexes are useful because they can help you to learn french othograph is ridiculous...it's like confusing the cause and the consequence! :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 16 of 55 16 November 2010 at 5:15pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I think you are mixing up two things here. An etymologically based writing system does not mean that users are conscious of the historical trajectory of the words. How many people are aware of the fact that the circumflex in hôtel indicates the origin in hostel? Very few. And, above all, what is the relevance of that factoid? My answer is none whatsoever. The suffix -ish is used in English as a diminutive (coldish, warmish). Who cares where it came from. Etymological knowledge is not a prerequisite for the mastery of a language. Words do not exist in a vacuum. Actually, they exist in a complex web of relationships that of course have a history. The issue here is that in my opinion, that history is irrelevant to the contemporary functioning of the system. Edited by s_allard on 16 November 2010 at 5:30pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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