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Will the French ortograph be reformed? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Haldor Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5616 days ago 103 posts - 122 votes  Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Swedish Studies: French, Spanish | Message 41 of 55 19 February 2011 at 9:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
Actually, the question was never which one of them was the most difficult. However, but French's description on this forum. English has no liaisons, so it's phonetics are easier.. How can you spot a system behind French? If there is indeed a French dictionary without phonetic description , it is a very poor choice. It is an absolute must in French. In English at least the pronunciation comes easy. English has a large portion of French words, and unfortunately, no Académie to regulate its written form. Besides, English is a Germanic language, with a different history so it's not the ideal comparison. As for the system, well, if you mean the French ethymological system linking it to the language as it was spoken 500 years ago, I think it's easier to just translate texts from Old to current French... 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5454 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 42 of 55 19 February 2011 at 10:18pm | IP Logged | |||||
Well, English has no liaisons, but that's not enough to make English spelling or pronunciation easy. The liaisons do however complicate things in French, but it's not something that can easily be solved through a spelling reform. There is a system behind French spelling. You have to learn a few basic rules first, and then reading French will become much easier. Going the other way, from speech to text, is not as easy though. I've seen many good French dictionaries where a phonetic transcription is only given for those words where you cannot work out the pronunciation following the normal rules. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| akkadboy Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5409 days ago 264 posts - 497 votes Speaks: French*, English, Yiddish Studies: Latin, Ancient Egyptian, Welsh | Message 43 of 55 20 February 2011 at 1:58pm | IP Logged | |||||
I think you're pointing at two different (linked but different) problems : -the system being difficult -people making mistakes As for the system being difficult to learn and master, I must agree. But firstly, as someone wrote in this thread, it is part of the language history and I like very much being able to trace back informations about words and grammar even as I am reading a XXIst century text. I like feeling a strong connection, a visual connection, between my XXIst century French and the language written 900 years ago by Chrétien de Troyes. Moreover, all these differences between ait, è, ai and so on are actually easing the reading. When you see "ait" at the end of a word , you know it's a verb, third person singular. If "ais, ai, ait, aient" were all written the same, it would slow the reading. The same can be said of much of the so-called "inconsistencies". As for people making mistakes (especially learners), I can't see the problem. I am wholly convinced that having a standard orthographic system is a good thing but I am equally convinced that people should not be blamed, tortured and sentenced to death because they can't write "hiboux" or "je les ai prises". I have in-rooted respect for what the past centuries have given us, that's why I learn so many ancient, dead, unuseful languages, and I don't like to see people rejecting all that legacy because they think it's too hard (not pointing at anyone on this forum), or, better said, I don't mind if they reject it but I don't like and don't want them to decide that all French-writing people should abandon it. If you dislike French orthography, then don't write in French or write as you want :). Edited by akkadboy on 20 February 2011 at 5:45pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Préposition Diglot Senior Member France aspectualpairs.wordp Joined 5115 days ago 186 posts - 283 votes Speaks: French*, EnglishC1 Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Swedish, Arabic (Levantine) | Message 44 of 55 20 February 2011 at 9:41pm | IP Logged | |||||
I don't see your point? I never said English was harder, simply that it was at least equally difficult, but that no-one really paid attention to that when it seemed that French spelling bothered so many learners. Anyway, Micheloud also says he finds the pronunciation of Russia difficult for French natives. I find it very easy, so I'll just say everyone's entitled to their opinions, and I will not base my opinion on a single person's point of view, especially when it comes to languages, where your learning is never gonna be the same as anyone else. Bear in mind the fact that he's a French native speaker, and he's probably never been taught the rules as well as a foreigner sitting there and reading their grammar book. I never said spelling was the hardest part at all, but when it comes to languages like English or French, then it's certainly something to take into account (obviously you won't have this problem with say Italian or Russian). Now regarding those Ws, I live in the UK, and I can assure you that they look at you as if you came out of the asylum if you do pronounce them! 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Haldor Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5616 days ago 103 posts - 122 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Swedish Studies: French, Spanish | Message 45 of 55 05 March 2011 at 8:14pm | IP Logged | |||||
Alright, listen, now we're debating which language/orthography is the hardest, which isn't the case here at all. Personally, I could think of a number of reasons why it's easier. And like you say, English really doesn't seem to bother anyone. Well, Micheloud is a native French speaker, and he had the privilege of spending years learning it at school, so that's to his advantage. I personally find English amusing in that way,. it's varied, but still logical. You say you don't think it's harder, only AT LEAST equally difficult.. Hmm, sounds like you're saying it's harder. But frankly, for my sake they could just as well change the English one if people have problems with its irregularities. Let's not get dogmatic. As for the original discussion, I think French orthography is ridiculous and so do a lot of people, even French. A man I know has lived in Switzerland for more than thirty years, but has never learned to write in French, and he knows four languages. I think it should be a language for the people both French and foreigners, and not some intellectual elite. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Kounotori Triglot Senior Member Finland Joined 5345 days ago 136 posts - 264 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, Russian Studies: Mandarin | Message 46 of 55 06 March 2011 at 1:06pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I wouldn't change French spelling since it does serve a purpose as has been demonstrated in this thread. I would, however, change French punctuation rules.
Putting a space after certain punctuation marks (! ? : ; ( ) come to mind) just looks god-awful. The rest of the world thinks it is a bad idea. It makes French people seem very confused to the rest of the internet as well . Often you find that because of these rules their use of punctuation is erratic , to put it mildly. They suddenly put spaces (or leave them out ) even before punctuation marks where they shouldn't have put those spaces , such as the comma and the full stop,which isn't a good thing, is it now ?And as you can see,this is exactly the kind of punctuation many of them end up using. It looks terrible ! Really! And with double ( French )spacing it ends up looking even more terrible. Edited by Kounotori on 06 March 2011 at 1:09pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Préposition Diglot Senior Member France aspectualpairs.wordp Joined 5115 days ago 186 posts - 283 votes Speaks: French*, EnglishC1 Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Swedish, Arabic (Levantine) | Message 47 of 55 08 March 2011 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
I have never ever seen the double spacing in use in French publications. Maybe I just don't read the right books, but I can't recall having ever seen it anywhere, neither my textbooks nor my novels. Nor have I ever put, or seen anyone put a space BEFORE a punctuation mark other than exclamation/interrogation marks (no-one has, in this thread). And it's a question of taste, really, I personally find it messy and confusing to stick the exclamation and questions marks to the preceding word, you just have to deal with it. A bit like Brits driving on the left side of the road, it's stupid but there's no reason to change it. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Kounotori Triglot Senior Member Finland Joined 5345 days ago 136 posts - 264 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, Russian Studies: Mandarin | Message 48 of 55 09 March 2011 at 12:37am | IP Logged | |||||
What can I say. I'm glad that the French don't use double spacing in any publications. Maybe the term French spacing is undeserved in that regard. However, French people are prone to using punctuation erratically and there have been plenty of examples of that even on these forums. Take the OP of this thread, for example, and you can see some of those rarely seen spaces before punctuation marks other than the ones reserved for questions and exclamations. And about your last comment, I don't find attaching a question mark or an exclamation mark to the end of a word any more "confusing" or "messy" than attaching a full stop or a comma to the end of a word. On the contrary, it looks neater. Actually, I find seeing a lone question mark in the middle of two sentences more confusing than seeing another one bravely hanging on to a final word. But that's just me. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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