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Azerbaijani material? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Stain Newbie United States Joined 5893 days ago 4 posts - 4 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 1 of 24 07 October 2008 at 7:43pm | IP Logged |
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Though I admit it's quite a stretch, I'm still surprised at how little I can find for Azeri. On Amazon there is only one $360 book with no reviews, and a TalkNow! course.
Does anyone know of other sources for learning Azeri? 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| daristani Senior Member United States Joined 7145 days ago 752 posts - 1661 votes  Studies: Uzbek | Message 2 of 24 07 October 2008 at 8:52pm | IP Logged |
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About the only currently available book for learning Azerbaijani in a serious way via English is the textbook by Kurtulus Oztopcu, which also has three CDs. I wouldn't call it an ideal course, since there doesn't seem to be a very "graduated" approach to it, and the vocabulary lists are unrealistically long. Nonetheless, it does have most of the basic grammar, and won't cost you an arm and a leg.
Look online at http://www.oztopcu.com/books/elementary-azerbaijani.htm Oztopcu also produced, for AudioForum, a small book called "Colloquial Azerbaijani" or something like that, which is essentially a phrasebook with a couple of cassette tapes of someone reading the phrases. Possibly useful for a bit of practice, but not a course at all, and not worth spending too much money on. If you know German, there's a somewhat more systematic book by Nehmat Rahmati and Korkut Bugday, entitled "Aserbaidschanisch: Lehrbuch", published by Harrassowitz Verlag, which is quite good. It has no audio, and has the advantage, or disadvantage, depending on how you look on it, of teaching, essentially together, both the dialect spoken in the Republic of Azerbaijan and that spoken in the Azerbaijani portions of Iran. It as well has ridiculously long vocabulary lists to learn. There's another small book, printed in Baku, entitled "Teach Yourself Azeri", by T. M. Khudazarov, which would probably be better as your second book. Finding it outside of Azerbaijan might be a problem, although you might check with the online "store" of "Azerbaijan International" magazine, which has sold it in the past: http://azer.secure-shops9.com/ Actually, I just googled for it and found it for sale at the following website: http://www.bakupassage.com/index.php?productID=125 Indiana University produced a "Basic Course in Azerbaijani" a number of years ago, which is now available used or as a very expensive reprint. It used a very confusing (and almost unreadable) transliteration system and mashed the different dialects together, so I wouldn't recommend it. There have been a couple of other small "textbooks" for foreigners published in Azerbaijan, but the ones I've seen were of poor quality and not worth trying to track down. Good luck, and if you should run across any other instructional materials to recommend, please write a posting on them since, as you note, there doesn't seem to be all that much available. ADDENDUM: I forgot to add this, from the Peace Corps, which is a PDF guide to the language and a bunch of audio tapes: http://multimedia.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/audio/languagele ssons/azerbaijan/ SECOND ADDENDUM: This site has lots of articles about Azerbaijani language, particularly in terms of various cultural issues related to the language: http://azeri.org/ (You have to click on all the links to find them all, as some of the pages of articles aren't visible from the main page.) Edited by daristani on 08 October 2008 at 8:34am 5 persons have voted this message useful | |
| fanatic Octoglot Senior Member Australia speedmathematics.com Joined 7147 days ago 1152 posts - 1818 votes Speaks: English*, German, French, Afrikaans, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Dutch Studies: Swedish, Norwegian, Polish, Modern Hebrew, Malay, Mandarin, Esperanto | Message 3 of 24 07 October 2008 at 10:20pm | IP Logged |
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You can learn the language cheaply (at least an introduction) with Transparent 101 Languages of the World.
It gives an excellent introduction to each language with audio with a choice of four speeds, you can click on each word for a literal translation and grammar notes, and a ten page summary of the language with grammar notes. It only gives an introduction to the language but it is a good start. I have used it to get a start with several languages. The audio is entirely in the target language (a plus for me) and will give a vocabulary "of up to 5,000 words" but I think that with most of the languages that should read around 800 - 1,000 words. It is certainly better than spending $360 for a book. I don't like the Talk Now courses but it is also worth considering. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| !LH@N Triglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6822 days ago 487 posts - 531 votes Speaks: German, Turkish*, English Studies: Serbo-Croatian, Spanish | Message 4 of 24 10 October 2008 at 8:26am | IP Logged |
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Or you could also go for Turkish (both languages are related and really just sound like dialects of each other...a little bit like Berlinerisch and Bayerisch für German), where there are more language materials available. And then I think you could either transit from Turkish to Azeri (which shouldn't be that big of an effort) or get an Azeri textbook in Turkish.
Regards, Ilhan 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6440 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 5 of 24 10 October 2008 at 8:38am | IP Logged |
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Dunwoody Press has an Azeri newspaper reader and Azeri texts, both with corresponding audio, and an Azeri-English dictionary.
Personally, I'm avoiding Azeri until after I take a serious look at Turkish, which is unlikely to be in the near future, as they're so similar. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| daristani Senior Member United States Joined 7145 days ago 752 posts - 1661 votes Studies: Uzbek | Message 6 of 24 10 October 2008 at 11:02am | IP Logged |
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It's true that Turkish and Azerbaijani are very similar, and that there are more, and better, materials to learn Turkish than Azerbaijani. So if you know one, learning the other is definitely a lot easier. But I would caution against the idea that Turkish and Azerbaijani are somehow the same. There are lots of differences in grammar and vocabulary, some major and others quite subtle, that make treating them as the same language unwise. (There are lots of anecdotes about the differences, one being the Azerbaijani airline hostess announcing that "Təyyarəmiz yaxında düşəcək", meaning "our aircraft is going to land shortly". The Turkish passengers, if they understand the word for "airplane" ("təyyarə", which hasn't been used in Turkish for decades), understand the sentence as "our aircraft is shortly going to crash." There are many, many such differences and opportunities for confusion, e.g., in Azerbaijani "kənddə yaşamaq" means "to live in the country", while in Turkish "kentte yaşamak" means "to live in the city)
The analogy between the Berlin and Bavarian dialects of German indeed makes sense if you only consider them as spoken dialects, but in the case of Turkish and Azerbaijani, there are two different written standards, with slightly different alphabets as well, rather than a standard German written language. Many Turkish nationalists want to treat the two as "dialects" of the same language, and thus tend to exaggerate the commonalities and disregard the differences, detracting from the quality and usefulness of Turkish materials on Azerbaijani. (I'm not aware of any "Azerbaijani textbook in Turkish"; I think this lack derives largely from the Turkish tendency to assume that the differences are inconsequential. The book by Kurtulus Oztopcu I recommend above, however, avoids this error, and presents Azerbaijani grammar the way in works in Azerbaijani, rather than as a reflection of Turkish.) So if you're just looking to learn a Turkic language, Turkish is indeed much more "approachable" (due to the abundance of materials) and useful than any of the others, but if you have a specific reason to learn Azerbaijani, I think starting with Turkish would likely lead to confusion, as you would have to "unlearn" a fair amount in order to speak actual Azerbaijani. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |
| !LH@N Triglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6822 days ago 487 posts - 531 votes Speaks: German, Turkish*, English Studies: Serbo-Croatian, Spanish | Message 7 of 24 10 October 2008 at 12:38pm | IP Logged |
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I agree.
But (there is always a but :P) there are a few things I would like to point out. A Turkish passanger seeing a smiling hostess on an Azeri airplane, saying: "Təyyarəmiz yaxında düşəcək" could guess from the context that she is refering to the airplane langing. You are very right, there are a lot of differences, and both languages have established an own written standard, but I think the analogy between Berlinerisch and Bayerisch still holds it's ground. First, you can write both dialects and there is an "agreed" upon way to do so (Ick denk ma de Berlinerisch is a bissel einfacha zu vöstähn als Bayerisch, da versteh ick ja keen word, um ehrlich zu sein!). Second, there are a few German dialects that I can not understand no matter how hard I try, even though I speak perfect German. But they are still considered as part of the German language. Now this thread is not about German and I am aware of that. But I hope I could make myself understood :) And I think it really wouldn't be that hard to learn Turkish first and then add Azeri to that. Turkish is my mother tongue, but I am not even near perfect (because I lived all my life outside of Turkey) but I have no problems whatsoever talking to Azeris or reading/watching Azeri media. I think it'd be worth a try Bu yəkşi :P Regards, Ilhan PS: It's not only that Turkish nationalists have that opinion, but a lot of Azeris and Turks (I don't want to say the majority, but I have the impression that it is the majority) share that opinion. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| daristani Senior Member United States Joined 7145 days ago 752 posts - 1661 votes Studies: Uzbek | Message 8 of 24 10 October 2008 at 2:49pm | IP Logged |
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Ilhan kardeşim, if I understand you, we seem to be in agreement that Turkish and Azerbaijani are very similar, but that there are still significant differences between them. These differences don't prohibit basic understanding between native speakers of both, but we're talking about a foreign learner, who (evidently) has a specific interest in Azerbaijani. Wouldn't it make more sense for this person to learn Azerbaijani, the variety of interest, directly, rather than first learn Turkish and then have to adapt to all the differences? I wouldn't advise someone interested in Dutch to learn German first, and I don't think it makes much more sense to advise someone interested in Azerbaijani to study Turkish first, even though roughly the same parallels apply (i.e., greater number of speakers, greater range of materials, easier availability of formal classes, etc.)
Furthermore, while native speakers of either language can generally make sense of speakers of the other in conversation, the differences become more pronounced in the written language(s). For instance, as you're probably aware, Azerbaijani literary works are translated into Turkish for the Turkish market. I don't recall seeing any books in Azerbaijani per se for sale in Turkish bookstores. I think this is because, despite the possibility of mutual comprehension in conversation, at least at a basic level, the written languages simply differ too much. An Azerbaijani journalist could never write in his own language in a Turkish newspaper, nor could a Turkish journalist write in Turkish in an Azerbaijani paper; even if the journalist(s) in question were to make the effort to adapt to the local standard, editing by a native speaker would still be required for quality control. I'm not aware if any Turkish papers are currently published in Azerbaijan, but one was a few years ago (I think "Zaman", but I'm not certain) and it was translated into Azerbaijani. So on the issue of practical language learning, for someone who wants to learn Azeri, and to be able to read and write in it as well, I think it makes more sense to start with materials for that, and then branch out as interests and circumstances dictate. As for the broader issue of language versus dialect, it's difficult, if not impossible, to draw a clear line on purely linguistic criteria; political questions, the issue of the alphabet, and simple practicality come into play. But the attitude that the language is all one, and that the differences don't matter, has impacted the quality of Turkology in Turkey; many Turkish scholars have assumed that similar grammatical structures had the same meanings, and thus didn't "get" the differences. (An example: the "-miş" suffix in Azerbaijani doesn't function the same way as in Turkish, since the verbal system actually works a bit differently, so that "gəlmişəm" in Azerbaijani would be used differently than "gelmişim" in Turkish. The differences are subtle, but real, and if you want to speak correctly and understand the nuances of what's said to you, these things need to be noted.) In addition to this practical aspect of the issue, the treatment of the different Turkic languages as mere "dialects" also causes resentment among "Turks" from Central Asia, who see the frequent Turkish references to "Kazak Türkçesi", etc., as implying that their languages are somehow not authentic, or that they are less-than-acceptable variations of "Türkçe", which naturally is the variety spoken in Turkey. (This Turkish approach is a bit like ignoring the distinction between "German" and "Germanic", and referring to, say, Swedish, as "Swedish German", and strikes people outside Turkey as being just as absurd.) When I was in Tashkent a few years ago, Uzbek officials complained about a recent reception or something at which the Turkish ambassador had delivered a lengthy speech in Turkish. The Uzbeks hadn't understood much of it, and said he should have spoken in Uzbek, Russian or English, or used an interpreter. I also recall being told by an Azerbaijani once that people in his country appreciated the fact that the US Foreign Service trained its diplomats being assigned there in Azerbaijani, while Turkish officials made no effort to adapt to the local variety of speech. Even if the Americans butchered the language, they evidently gained points by trying to use it, at least from some people. I don't want to suggest that the ultra-nationalist approach is universal among Turkish Turkologists; there are exceptions, with Talat Tekin being the most prominent. But Turkology in Turkey has long been a stronghold of extreme nationalist types, to the detriment of the quality of the work done there. Sorry, I see I've gotten pretty far off the initial subject! But rather than erase my meanderings, I'll leave them up, in case others interested in Azerbaijani or other Turkic languages might be interested, and I'll try to summarize by acknowledging that, generally speaking, Turkish is by far the most useful, most important, and most easily acquired Turkic language, and that knowing Turkish will certainly make learning the others of the family a whole lot easier, but that the languages of the family are sufficiently varied (with Turkish being in many ways extremely divergent, especially due to lexical changes over the past few decades) that it really only makes sense to study them as separate languages. That way, you can benefit from the similarities but still pick up on the differences. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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