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Gender-neutral pronoun for "he/she" | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| pookiebear79 Groupie United States Joined 6030 days ago 76 posts - 142 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Swedish, Italian | Message 25 of 74 14 November 2009 at 5:19am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I don't consider it some sort of 'overblown political correctness' to acknowledge that this is an issue in English. As a woman, I do get a bit annoyed when people assume I'm a guy because they just consider that (being male) the "normal" or default way to be, and anything else (i.e. female) is "other."
Even here, it used to seem that the assumption, when someone would mention something another poster said, was to call the other poster "him" or "he" even if it was not clear from the username whether the person was male or female. I think there are more female users now so some users are not as quick to presume as they used to be. That's my issue with always using "him" or "he" as the default...for example, "The reader should decide for himself." I don't believe "him" to be neutral as some people do. Having said that, I don't waste my time getting all upset about it either, because obviously English has no easy answer. Some writers will do the "he or she" or (s)he thing, but if you're writing something of any length, it becomes very cumbersome to keep writing "he or she" after the first few times. Since I don't agree with the practice of assuming everyone is male and using "he",(this is especially a prickly issue in regards to some professions and abilities and in academia, where the exclusive use of he/him gives off an air that only males exist in that profession or have the capability to understand the concept being discussed,) I disagree just as much with the other extreme of using "she" all the time. I agree with what others have said, it just seems artificial (and can come off as a bit condescending.) I personally prefer as neutral an approach as exists in English, that is: the use of the generic "you," they, "people" or "one" as seems appropriate in the context, as others have mentioned. It's probably the closest compromise English has, since I don't see artificially constructed pronouns catching on in mainstream use. I actually find the issue of how to address more than one "you" to be more difficult to navigate. I sometimes use "you lot," with people I am familiar with. I find "you people" to be quite condescending as I've been on the receiving end a few too many times, usually meant to diminish one's capacity for individual thoughts and reduce them to some ridiculous generalization (i.e. "Isn't that how all 'you people' think?" and that sort of nonsense.) I occasionally will use 'you all' ("Hi, how are you all doing?") but I don't use "y'all." And then there's "you guys," which again I'll use with people I'm familiar with and they don't care, but it's awkward unless you're addressing an all male group of people. Some women find it to be offensive, and it's not just a "feminist issue." I've seen women who don't have a feminist leaning notion in their whole being object to being addressed as "you guys." However if, theoretically, "you guys" was gender neutral and the clearest alternative English had to addressing a group, I think it's sad that some people would prefer not to use it because of their xenophobic feelings towards Americans or anything they even perceive as American,(which is brought up in so many, many threads on the forum that I think we got the "Americans/American English sucks" memo by now, an entire group being painted with one broad brush, many times over) rather than to be able to have an effective alternative to addressing a group as "you" and have them be confused about which "you" the speaker meant. I'm honestly not trying to derail this thus far mostly civil thread with that last bit, but I've sat silently by as thread after thread devolves into this sort of thing (and many end up locked because of the nasty arguments, even when the thread originally had *nothing* to do with English or the US at all,) and since I see the little digs beginning to spring up again here, I'd just like to say, I think we get the point, it's not necessary to infuse every thread with it. Since this is a thread about English, of which there is more than one variety, can't we discuss the differences without (predictably)calling one variant out as "less than" the others? Please? :) 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Grosse Affe Newbie United States Joined 6836 days ago 32 posts - 47 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 26 of 74 14 November 2009 at 5:20am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Yep, "You all" is perfectly fine everywhere, but the contraction "y'all" is distinct to a specific region. Hey, I have a question. Does anyone ever use "You's Guys"? I've seen it in movies and joking around, but never heard it much in real life. To me it brings to mind Mobster movies or maybe the Jersey area, but that could be wrong. Just curious. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
 meramarina Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5967 days ago 1341 posts - 2303 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Italian, French Personal Language Map | Message 27 of 74 14 November 2009 at 6:13am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
You are right, this form of address is used here in New Jersey and nearby areas. Not by me! And not just by mafiosos: it's common in casual speech, although it's probably exaggerated just a bit for effect in movies and TV. People also say, for "Long Island" -- "Lawn Guy Land!" It is also very normal to say "you all," and in the Southern regions of the USA, "y'all" is endemic. It is not, though, acceptable to write these words, except in a very informal situation. These constructions fill a strange gap in the language. A pronoun is needed, but it does not exist. I think this is due more to historical and societal developments, which of course change the accepted ways of expressing oneself (there's that "one" and it does sound overly formal and archaic and I'd only use it in writing). It was not an insult to write "he" as a pronoun meant to encompass both male and female referents as recently as a few decades ago. This is now falling out of use; whether for better or worse, I don't know. At this time, the best we can do is to restructure our sentences to write around the problem. Language necessarily changes over time, and my best guess is that "they" will eventually be adopted as the default gender-neutral pronoun. It is already in common use and sounds normal to the ear, if not to a strict grammarian. I'm perfectly fine using it in speech, but not in writing--maybe, regarding this issue, we are in a transitional time of diglossia? Edited by meramarina on 14 November 2009 at 6:40am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7156 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 28 of 74 14 November 2009 at 6:24am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Not a problem at all, Affe. However, if you use "y'all", you'll still very likely be labelled "American" by outsiders (in turn you'll indeed be viewed as someone from the Southeast by those of us in the know). Cordelia0507's feeling was that "you guys" sounds "American" and marked as such, but I've met enough Canadians here who say "you guys" and no one has looked down on them because of their perceived "Americaness". Edited by Chung on 14 November 2009 at 8:47am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| NuclearGorilla Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6786 days ago 166 posts - 195 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Japanese, French | Message 29 of 74 14 November 2009 at 6:50am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I would like to mention for those worried about using "they" as a gender-neutral solution that it has been in use for at least the past 500 years and that I hate the prescriptivism that would defame such long-lived and useful language feature.
Regardless, I think it's perfectly acceptable to use in the spoken language, perhaps limiting it to less formal writing if you're squeamish (although "themself" has always looked awkward to me in writing and would probably sound awkward if dwelled upon). Any attempts to supplant it with some hideous abomination should be subdued and their proponents appropriately destroyed. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5521 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 30 of 74 14 November 2009 at 7:25am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
That's exactly what at least I meant about political correctness. Using "she" and "her", which is the norm in some situations in (pre-PC) Swedish doesn't bother me at all. Perhaps if I were working as a nurse or kindergarten teacher it would bother me more, since I would already be self-conscious about working in a female world. The reason it's used in Swedish is that "man", as in "man is a social animal", is female in Swedish, at least grammatically. We used to have grammatical genders for everything, now it's basically just the time and man that are female, except physically female creatures. Of course, in the real world outside academical theorising, calling an unknown person he does not mean that female is "other". It's just the way the language works., calling an unknown person he does not mean that female is "other". It's just the way the language works.
What's wrong with "themselves"? Edited by Gusutafu on 14 November 2009 at 7:28am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| ericspinelli Diglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5783 days ago 249 posts - 493 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: Korean, Italian | Message 31 of 74 14 November 2009 at 8:13am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Third person singular "they" dates back to the fourteenth century. You can read about the history of "they" and variants, complete with dated examples, here: Examples of singular "their" etc. from the OED and elsewhere.
While I agree it's possible to create example sentences and theoretical situations in which the use of "you" for both the singular and plural creates confusion, reality tells a different tale. Verbal communication allows for a variety of contextual solutions and in writing the problem presents no more ambiguities than any other misuse of pronouns. In fact, I see things like "John & Mark agreed to go to Disneyland, but when the day came he said no way" as being far more ambiguous than the example above*. Regardless of source, ambiguous writing is bad writing and should be avoided. *Without further context I interpret it as being singular. Were you to change "attitude" to "attitudes" you might have a slightly more compelling case, however. As a native speaker of English I don't see the word "you" to be problematic. Now that I speak a language (Japanese) with even less distinction and concern for number I see it as being even less of a problem.
As a North American, in situations that demand additional clarity for the second person, I see "you all" as being the best and most flexible solution. However, the addition of "all" isn't limited to just these situations and "we all" and "they all" as emphasizers are equally valid constructions. As for "you guys" I use it for groups of people consisting of all males or both males and females. Groups of all females can be addressed with "you girls/gals/ladies" and other variations if necessary.
While I admit I lose some respect for authors who use such mixed abominations, I agree there is little point in getting angry about it, just as there is little point in getting angry should an author choose to use either "he" or "her" exclusively. The people who do get angry usually aren't the kind of people I'm worried about offending anyway. Edited by ericspinelli on 14 November 2009 at 8:19am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7156 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 32 of 74 14 November 2009 at 8:35am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
When I address semi-formally or informally a group of men and women, I sometimes use "you folks" rather than "you people" or "you all". 1 person has voted this message useful |
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