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Is Pimsleur the only good one out there? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Desertbandit Groupie Netherlands Joined 5101 days ago 80 posts - 104 votes  Speaks: Arabic (Iraqi)* | Message 9 of 37 02 February 2011 at 10:51pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Pimsleur is good for learning the basics...In no way Pimsleur is going to give you fluency I never stated that, and its an efficient way to start into your language.
I never disregarded anyone's opinion I specificaly said it was known amongst those who liked Pimsleur and were it worked for them. HE automaticly tried to retort my opinion or statement but fine lets get back on topic. Its no miracle program I Agree but its a decent method to study a language with you can indeed do allot worse . Edited by Desertbandit on 02 February 2011 at 10:54pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5566 days ago 938 posts - 1840 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 10 of 37 03 February 2011 at 12:20am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Normunds, maybe you do not express yourself very well (and I realise English is not your native language, so maybe it is a matter of register) but are you saying you just listen to Michel Thomas? No wonder you then say you get nothing out of it, because clearly the course involves working on constructing sentences in most of the common verb tenses based on the limited linguistic tool box that he has given you. Most non-polyglot people who follow the MT course I have known complain of fatigue from the sheer density of what they have to cover - so it is hardly 'nothing'.
If one takes the foundations taught in the two MT courses and move onto serious courses like Assimil or Linguaphone one has a far better start for internalising the language than just using those courses alone. Adult second language learning (let alone language self teaching) is largely devoid of serious academic studies, but at the least in the 60s and 70s academics like Wilga Rivers demonstrated from experiment that most (admittedly English speaking) adult learners assimilate a language better when they have the target language's grammatical structures explained to them in their own language. MT does that and uses a well done audio version of old methods to provide a quick way of grasping those structures. As for Pimsleur, or for that matter the, as you put it, 'pathetic' 'amusing, but no learning value' Earworms, if you spend the 45 hours (or 2 hours in the case of Earworms) it takes to do the three volume course, you will pick up some of the basics of the language, many of the most essential touristy words and you might infer a good deal more from the teaching. Although, this inference can be done quicker by a method such as MT or the 50s Teach Yourself books or the Assimil/Linguaphone type of course which make the structures explicit, it is still in Pimsleur. For many people those early 500 words form all they will ever need in the language, and for the rest of us, form a basis for moving onto the first target of about 2500 words (where, according to academic studies, linguistic independence starts) and beyond. Now I don't think Pimsleur is the best thing out there (cost, S&S's B*S advertising, slowness, content and the 'by implication' methodology being my main problems) - but as a beginner programme it gets a person going by gently easing them into a language - more so than the deep-end diving board approach of Assimil or Linguaphone (both of which I love after I have obtained a grasp of the grammar of a language) or the hit and miss approach of paid group teaching. I certainly have found that in the early stages it beats the 'listen and repeat again and again' instructions of, say, Linguaphone, despite the fact that one normally has to do this at a later stage of your learning. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Normunds Pentaglot Groupie Switzerland Joined 5965 days ago 86 posts - 112 votes Speaks: Latvian*, French, English, Russian, German Studies: Mandarin, Indonesian | Message 11 of 37 03 February 2011 at 1:47am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Well Elexi, I guess we have quite a different viewpoint on these matters. If you say there is something worth spending time in Earworms... and then go on to compare them with Pimsleur... well if you are an absolute beginner and after 2h your remember all of Earworms, it might be worth. I do not think anybody will take much out of it in 2h. Maybe 20h. And it's just a few basic phrases anyway, even if you manage to remember them. Is it is so minuscule amount, that it is not even worth discussing.
BTW, for the record, I did not label Earworms as pathetic - they are nice without any substantial learning value (IMHO). Pathetic goes for phrase/wordlist cramming programs such as Berlitz, Living Language, Vocabulearn, Rocket and Rough Guide. When I said listening, yes I meant using "linguistic toolbox" as you express it your "elevated register" (in my register I would not use any serious-looking term for MT, right), doing whatever the guys on the tape, do, etc. I never stick with MT at all, but I did one of them labeled "Advanced" and was shocked at its basic level, at the old man's bad accent and stupid "mnemonics". Maybe just my antipathy towards the speaker leads to some negativity towards the course itself, but I would never ever consider suggesting anybody spend time or even worse money on MT. But yes, then I tried another MT course with a woman being as boring and making the same kind of annoying comments... so I think it was not the old man, it's just the approach. As for the Pimsleur I'm also as ambiguous as you. And I do not think I was bashing it at all. Except when putting in the same boat as MT.... For a person without learning skills (and if we disregard price and just the bad smell of their marketing) it probably is a good solution. And when I said "Nothing" then it was just an ellipsis; I meant "Nothing real, nothing substantial, nothing like what their marketers talk about..." :-) It really covers so little; about same as MT. 500 words - your are still a plain beginner after this course. And yes, you cannot cover it 45h, you need to repeat some - at least I had to, so I assume about 60h. You still need another beginner course after that. If you intend to do anything more than buy an occasional beer or annoy girls in your target language. Not in the same boat as Earworms, but not anything I would pay for to listen to; discounting the price, and in absence of a good material, I might think about it. So what is the difference in our position? I guess MT :-) And yes, I'd take Assimil over Pimsleur in "the early stages" as well. For free I might take it as a supplementary material to listen to while jogging or taking bicycle to work - I got lots of time I cannot use the book, so something like Pimsleur easily fits in. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5566 days ago 938 posts - 1840 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 12 of 37 03 February 2011 at 8:54am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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To be honest, I think we have similar views as to long term learning. Its just I favour grammar translation in
the early stages and you (i think) favour comprehended target language input. Based on our different learning styles both methods probably aim at the same thing - which is to grasp the structure of the language early on. So with all good will I think we can agree to disagree. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 13 of 37 03 February 2011 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
OK, what we have here is a simple understanding. When you say "it is known" in English, you are not stating something as opinion, but as fact. If you say "it is known among" a group of people, this is a statement that this group of people know the truth, and that people not in that group are ignorant of the truth. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 14 of 37 03 February 2011 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
The full Michel Thomas course is equivalent to 3 days of full time study. I've never come across any other course that will teach you to say things like "if you'd told me you needed it I would have given it to you" within 3 days of starting to learn. In fact, some courses struggle to teach you that in the first three years. So what is "basic" and what is "advanced"?
None of the other teachers follow the same approach as Thomas -- they are pretty superficial in their copying of his style. (Thomas uses very few mnemonics, the new teachers use loads.)
Pimsleur and MT cover very different ground. MT aims at teaching the fundamental grammar, Pimsleur teaches useful phrases. The vocabulary in the two courses is pretty different. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Normunds Pentaglot Groupie Switzerland Joined 5965 days ago 86 posts - 112 votes Speaks: Latvian*, French, English, Russian, German Studies: Mandarin, Indonesian | Message 15 of 37 03 February 2011 at 4:18pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Possibly that different courses have different focus regarding "ground". The course I went through covered about the same things as in Pimsleur both vocabulary-wise and grammar-wise. I first listened to Pimsleur and I listened only to MT Advanced, so I cannot really compare, but by extrapolation Pimsleur had larger vocabulary and about the same amount of grammar. Only in Pimsleur it was more by example, implicit, while in MT the teacher was telling lame stories over and over. And yes, my assumption that annoying mnemonics and stupid jokes is the basis of MT method was based on two other teachers. But unfortunately we do not not talk about Michael himself, but "series" using his name. The old guy will not make another course. And finally, will you also say that 90 lesson Pimsleur is say 6 full day course? I'd agree that taking 3 MT levels in 3 days will not be easy. Even if their content was acceptable. IMO it would have been pretty counter-productive unless the course is really geared to do it. But in this perspective I agree that as a content for three day the course it might be ok. Frankly I'm sick remembering the MT course I was exposed to. I'm ready to assume that not all of them are that bad - btw I first mentioned MT in this thread and just said that there are people who like it and personally I do not accept it. So stick with them if you enjoy and let other have their reasons to avoid this. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| mr_chinnery Senior Member England Joined 5758 days ago 202 posts - 297 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 16 of 37 03 February 2011 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I'd definitely recommend it, if only for the way it teaches pronunciation. What small vocabulary it does teach you will be very well engrained into your memory. By the way, Normunds is a troll with a vitriolic hatred of Pimsleur. In his opinion anyone who dares express anything positive about it is a marketer. He accused me of the same thing in the thread he mentions here. Your opinion is not as valid as Normunds, please don't forget this when posting about Pimsleur on this forum. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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