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How different is Sudanic Arabic? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Desertbandit Groupie Netherlands Joined 5100 days ago 80 posts - 104 votes  Speaks: Arabic (Iraqi)* | Message 9 of 15 13 April 2011 at 10:14pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Lets ask the biggest communication instrument in the middle east. ''Hey there Media'' ''Hey there Desertbandit'' ''Oh great Media, who talks to everyone in the middle east on a daily basis, what Dialect do you mainly talk in?' ''Silly Desertbandit , I speak in MSA so that all the Arabic speaking people can understand me'' So really, the biggest communication tool in the world uses MSA and people in the Media are professionals when it comes to effective communication. And you dare to claim that you need a dialect to communicate with Arabs? Also I suspect that you do not know so much Arabs nor ever been to the middle east . On top of that, I knew a non native Arab...who learned MSA ...he understood me just fine and I understood him perfectly . ''YOU MUST LEARN A DIALECT TO COMMUNICATE WITH ARABS'' is a big myth that needs to be stopped. .
Exactly Edited by Desertbandit on 13 April 2011 at 10:17pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Woodpecker Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5811 days ago 351 posts - 590 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Written), Arabic (Egyptian) Studies: Arabic (classical) | Message 10 of 15 13 April 2011 at 10:47pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I lived in Egypt for a year, and I've spoken to many Arabs from other countries, most of them education working professionals. I have yet to meet one who was comfortable speaking MSA. Sure, if I spoke it, they could understand what I was saying, but they couldn't respond in MSA.
This is exactly my point. Everyone understands MSA, and nobody other than broadcast journalists, shiekhs at al-Azhar, and Arabic instructors speak it. Communication is a two-way street. If you want to understand what Arabs are saying to you, you must learn a dialect, more specifically, the dialect of the people you want to talk to. To tell the original poster that he can just take classes in Sudanese and then cruise around North Africa or Iraq understanding completely everything everyone is saying is simply absurd. hrhenry, communication between Arabs from different countries is pretty complicated. My Egyptian friends tell me they can't really understand people from the Maghreb most of the time, while the dialects closer to Egypt don't pose much of a problem. In general, as I understand it, they just speak their own dialect while leaving out things that are excessively colloquial. I also have been told that actually learning to speak another dialect isn't all that hard if you live in the country where it's spoken for a while, especially if you're a native speaker. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| daristani Senior Member United States Joined 7144 days ago 752 posts - 1661 votes Studies: Uzbek | Message 11 of 15 13 April 2011 at 11:13pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I don't know enough about the degree of knowledge of standard Arabic among Arabs of different nationalities or educational levels to comment, but in reading the above comments, I was reminded of a similar discussion on the forum of a certain Uzbek site-that-must-not-be-named several months ago. Here's a lengthy quote from one knowledgeable (but non-Arab) observer ("binmashish") based on his own experiences:
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------- The only country in which all subjects including medicine and engineering are taught consistently in Arabic only and not in colonial languages is Syria. I've noticed that a lot of learners who go to Syria for a year gain much better mastery of MSA than those who go elsewhere. In contrast, Lebanon, with all of its wonderful bookstores, is not a good place to learn Arabic these days. You can live and die in Beyrut without knowing any Arabic. But in Syria, even people from humble circumstances speak good MSA and can read classical texts on the spot. This makes for more linguistic awareness, which is always a good thing. So, only in Syria (and perhaps to some extent in Iraq pre-war, or in Saudi for different reasons) is there a widespread lucid understanding about standard vs. dialect. In other parts of the Arab world, differences between MSA and the dialect are becoming blurry. One reason for this: A lot of upper class people in Arabic-speaking countries are very insecure about MSA and more at ease speaking English (or French). Most of them don't see a good foundation in Arabic as prestigious or relevant at all, and many will even speak English with their children! One example is the current king of Jordan, whose formal Arabic was quite bad when he made his first public appearances. Now he's improved his act, but this is just one person. Another famous figure whose formal Arabic, surprisingly, was not very good was Edward Said. The implications of this are far-reaching and they severely impact the preservation of the rich classical heritage, which is becoming neglected by schools, especially the non-religious literature. A lot of classical literature is about sex and real life of upper classes, which makes uptight readers uncomfortable (hence, a huge part of the classical literature is banned in Saudi Arabia). Many schools for the poor only teach the Qur'an and the Hadith when it comes to the older literary tradition, making the young generations insecure about writing Arabic in general. A particularly disturbing anecdote was told by an acquaintance of mine, who spent a summer in Malta taking some classes. There were a lot of other Arabic speakers around, but speakers of different dialects (sociologically, upper and upper-middle class) did not know how to communicate with each other. Instead of using a modified Egyptian-Levantine combination, familiar to all of them from movies, or a modified standard Arabic (those are two historical possibilities always practiced before the colonial period), they all spoke English with each other. She herself felt slightly ashamed as she was telling me this. A big problem is also the internet: this is where the linguistic insecurities of many people really come to light, and many prefer writing a cliched mixture of English and colloquial. Moroccans and Algerians especially are more comfortable writing French anyway. Now to dialects: I usually speak a modified MSA, adopting the most egregious forms from the dialect (when in Egypt, I will say dilwati, hanshuf etc). Usually that goes over quite well and it is the expected linguistic form from a foreigner anyway. But my long term goal is to learn a couple of dialects really well so that I can use all the linguistic registers. Be aware, however, of this problem: dialect usage will open the hearts of the rural and the poor, but many middle-class people will actually respect you less if you use a lot of dialect! They will often think that you DON'T know MSA, that you're just fooling around, that you're unsophisticated... This attitude is paradoxical, but it reflects their own fears about being recognized as rural, uneducated, etc. Yet there is also certain pride taken in dialect, especially in Egypt and Morocco. As you probably know, in Egypt there are also more attempts to use the dialect in the written form than elsewhere (with historical precedents, but especially mid-century). This has earned the Egyptians some mockery and a cliche that most of them can't speak MSA, which is unfair and only partially justified. I find the developments of the 20th c. exciting, but I also hope that MSA is not lost in the process. I would like Egypt to once again develop a rich literary scene, as in the 1950s, but with more creativity concerning the dialect as well. There is tremendous potential for linguistic and artistic expression in Morocco with the three major varieties of Berber, the Moroccan darija, MSA...but in many bookstores, you will only find books in French. This is saddening. I've noticed that my understanding particularly of North African Arabic varies tremendously, and I was relieved when on one occasion, traveling in rural Tunisia, urban Tunisians also had difficulties understanding some local speakers. Yet, some elderly people whom I met in Morocco and who went on the hajj told me that after a while it was becoming easy for them to communicate with Saudi Arabic speakers even though their MSA was not good. I also find that the longer I study Arabic, the more I perceive the similarities between dialects and a certain internal logic which they share comes to fore. ADD: The situation concerning the teaching of dialects outside of the Arab world is pretty horrible. There are very few schools even teaching the basics of any dialect, let alone more advanced levels. In the US, 99% of all classes are MSA. In Germany, France and the UK, there are a few schools which offer dialect classes, but not on a completely regular basis. The unfortunate presupposition is that once you're in the Arab world, you'll just soak it in. In the Arab world itself, the situation is better. AUC and AUB offer dialect classes. It is also possible to study the dialects in Morocco and Syria. But often those classes are too expensive and too basic. ADD 2: I forgot to mention that many Palestinians also have a sophisticated level of understanding of different registers of Arabic. This comes from a heightened sense of urgency in preserving their folklore. Many Palestinians in the diaspora are also exposed to different kinds of Arabic (Gulf, Tunisia, Egypt) which makes them quicker to switch between them than other Arabic speakers. Also, I think it is helpful linguistically for many of them to know Hebrew, which exposes them to thinking about Semitic languages as a group. ADD 3: Few people know about this, but Yemen is a fantastic area linguistically, with many different local dialects. I assume that the knowledge of MSA must be good there. I can't wait to travel there and would be happy even to live there for a while. I'd be happy if other learners and speakers of Arabic share their views. 8 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5130 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 12 of 15 14 April 2011 at 2:50am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
My point was that there is obviously a middle ground of some sort that everyone understands and can appropriately respond to. Call that Modified Standard Arabic or Standard Arabic. It doesn't matter. People can communicate with it and it's not as "complicated" as you're making it to be. Out of curiosity, how do you suppose all these broadcasters learned Modern Standard Arabic - which nobody speaks? R. == 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Desertbandit Groupie Netherlands Joined 5100 days ago 80 posts - 104 votes Speaks: Arabic (Iraqi)* | Message 13 of 15 14 April 2011 at 10:30am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Thanks Daristani .
But what is all the Heisa about , I can communicate with almost all Arabs , and im not some kind of MSA jedi master call it modified MSA if you want to , and yes I can even communicate with Maghreb Arabs . the only Arabic I have a slight problem with is Egpytian, but thats do-able to . Next to that Poverty in Egypt is quite high you know, education amongst Egyptians might be quite low , also Egpyt gives a bit of a blurry view of ARabic in the ARabic world, because Egypt's Arabic is considerd different than almost all the other Arabics by most Arabs...but allot of them speak Egpytian because of Egpyts huge presence in the Media. AND espechially in NOrth ARfica...people tend to watch their MSA more because they know they can communicate better with the middle east, because north African dialects could have big differences also in North Africa they tend to educate their childeren so that they are able to read the Quran, ive noticed that with north African Immigrants to . In the middle east, MSA is integrated in society and language , it has to come to them naturally. With MSA you can get far, and im sure of it allot of them can respond to you in MSA. and I truly believe you can even get far with SUdanese Arabic. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Woodpecker Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5811 days ago 351 posts - 590 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Written), Arabic (Egyptian) Studies: Arabic (classical) | Message 14 of 15 15 April 2011 at 12:02am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Modern Standard Arabic is a specific form of Arabic, and it's not the one that Arabs use in these situations. Find me an Arab who declines while speaking or uses classical verb forms and I'll send you a fiver. They don't exist. I'm not speculating about this, I really have spent a lot of time in the Middle East. It is complicated--as the post above notes, depending on the speakers, there will probably be some mixing of Levantine and Egyptian grammar, with a reasonable amount of MSA vocabulary used in place of regional terms. As far as newscasters go, they are given accent training and are usually reading from a script. It's far easier to read MSA than produce it conversationally. As far as the original poster goes, I think I've made my feelings on this matter pretty clear. As the only one posting in this thread who's actually learned Arabic from scratch, just taking Sudani classes is not going to get the O.P. to the level he wants to reach. I'm going to leave this to the birds now. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6272 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 15 of 15 15 April 2011 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I went to Arabic evening classes for a time some years back. There were three teachers,
one after another - a Palestinian, an Algerian and lastly (the longest-lasting one) a Sudanese. The first two more or less used MSA though their pronunciation seemed affected by their dialects, while the Sudanese used Sudanese colloquial, which seems like Egyptian in some ways. He issued extensive hand-outs and was the best of the three teachers. The first two were also more interested in Arabic writing, while the Sudanese focused on conversational Arabic (which is presumably why he used his own dialect). Edited by William Camden on 15 April 2011 at 1:49pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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