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Feynman on Japanese | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5226 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 18 of 23 30 April 2011 at 11:42am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Maybe because we are --by far-- more interested in solving interesting puzzles than in creating dull ones? :) OK, seriously... First, we don't know for sure what exactly put Feynmann off, but I don't think someone who managed to learn Portuguese would refer to adding this or that for politeness is 'using different words', so I'd go for the 'different roots' hypothesis, which would be baffling for sure. Then, if you explain using such 'different words' on the basis of 'needless complications' you surely get a mighty pissed-off physicist :) Second, we know even less about his teachers, but again I doubt someone as bright as The Guy, who besides managed to learn another language, wouldn't have found a way to compensate for that. And third, I don't know how well we can compare the Japanese you should handle today in those situations with what Feynman had to face 50 years ago. Perhaps those of you who know better can enlighten me, but I've met a lot of ~25 yo Japanese girls in the company of a Japanese friend who was ~40, and he told me it was as exhausting and tiresome for him as it was for me, not because of the language like in my case, but because of the effort it was to adjust to their ways of talking, expressions, mannerisms, etc. So, maybe it was way different back then :-? Edited by mrwarper on 30 April 2011 at 11:44am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| patuco Diglot Moderator Gibraltar Joined 7015 days ago 3795 posts - 4268 votes Speaks: Spanish, English* Personal Language Map | Message 19 of 23 30 April 2011 at 2:11pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Would the Japanese expect a foreigner to understand the levels of politeness or would they excuse such socially inappropriate speech (and possibly behaviour) because the person is not Japanese?
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| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5226 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 20 of 23 30 April 2011 at 2:45pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I have often heard that is the case. I would --to an extent--, regardless of nationality.
I mean, I think we shouldn't perpetuate meaningless social conventions, and that any 'rules' about interaction between any two given individuals should be left up to them, and them alone. So, if someone says/does something that I deem inappropriate, I'll ignore it until a certain (probably somewhat low) threshold of comfortability is trespassed; then I'll tell him what's going on just to ensure he's aware, and any hard stuff will come only after that. Apparently, however, many people won't go to great lengths in that regard. I really felt bad about that woman's story, even if it's partly fictional. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6272 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 21 of 23 02 May 2011 at 3:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
In the film, the actress appears to have a command of spoken Japanese better than a five-year old's (I say appears, as I don't know Japanese myself). On the other hand, her grasp of social and company etiquette in the rather unpleasant zaibatsu that hires her is slim to none. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6439 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 22 of 23 02 May 2011 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
The book goes into this in some detail. It's full of references to her speaking Japanese like the 5 year old she was when she left, and her continual struggle to learn to speak it like an adult. Her attempts even backfire at times, when she fulfils social expectations in ways not expected of her as a foreigner, hence breaking other social expectations and getting rather negative reactions. The passage in the book about serving drinks at a meeting is worth a read. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Lucky Charms Diglot Senior Member Japan lapacifica.net Joined 6949 days ago 752 posts - 1711 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: German, Spanish | Message 23 of 23 03 May 2011 at 9:53am | IP Logged | ||||||||
In my experience, they would very generously excuse socially inappropriate speech (e.g. wrong politeness level) as long as there is no obvious ill intention behind it, because they are constantly being told how difficult their language is and, to be honest, many seem to have extremely low expectations for a foreigner's Japanese. The foreigner who can say "arigatou" is praised, and he who can put a sentence together is often met with shock, never mind the impossible task of getting the politeness levels right! ;) As a result of this almost too-forgiving attitude, my coworker here has been using informal speech indiscriminately for 9 months, with customers, company presidents, the mayor... and has never met with more than good-natured amusement. As for behavior, I think it depends on whether or not a certain cultural difference is known to Japanese people. No one will fault a foreigner if he doesn't keep an eye on his superior's beer glass and refill it when necessary, or if he takes someone's empty compliment at face value, or anything like that because these are widely known to be "Japanese" behaviors which foreigners aren't expected to know (again, the bar here is set rather low). However, there understandably are cultural differences which the average Japanese are not aware of, and which they might misinterpret as self- centeredness, irresponsibility, etc. on the part of the foreigner. However, the situation we're talking about is in a professional setting, where an employee's conduct reflects on the entire company, so her coworkers and superiors might be less inclined to think her gaffes are very endearing. Also, because her spoken Japanese is fluent and her accent is quite possibly native-like, she might not get the "foreigner pass" so easily. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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