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Advantages/disadvantages mature learners | ||
Tags: Age | Learning Strategy | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6707 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 9 of 20 11 May 2011 at 3:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
Young children may still be building their model of the world, but I doubt that this continues into the teenage years, or at last that the process is fundamentally diffrent from the model building of older persons. Youngsters have to take decisions about things that are settled for older people, but this is not the same as acquiring new mindsets - it is just an obligation to navigate faster between things you already know or which resemble something you already know. But let's take a strictly linguistic example. In Russian a 'subject predicate' can be in the Nominative, but it is more often in the instrumental - a case that desn't even exist in danish, not even in Latin. So to form certain Russian examples you have to think being something as something related to doing something with (or by being) the thing you are. There is a conception of the world built into that use of the instrumental. Another example: in Bahasa (Malaysia as well as Indonesia) the word "yang" is a connector or some kind, and the words after it may be just something like an adjective or a complete phrase with something resembling a verb. In this last case it is similar to a subordinate phrase in "Standard European" (as somebody once called it), but there is no similar construction if the connectee is an adjective - apart from comparisons. So you have to start thinking in other grammatical cathegories to learn Bahasa. The relevant point is that I am much better at grasping such unfamiliar constructions now than I were at 12 or 15 years of age, simply because I have seen a lot more since then which was just as weird. Edited by Iversen on 11 May 2011 at 3:52pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5434 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 10 of 20 11 May 2011 at 6:12pm | IP Logged | |||||
I beg to differ with Iversen on this last point about better grasping unfamiliar constructions at a later age. This is true only if we think in terms of formal learning of grammar. As language teachers know only too well, explaining grammar to children or teenagers is a daunting task, even in our native language. But these same children will spontaneously acquire those grammatical constructions when placed in the right learning environment. Of course, this is exactly what native language learners do. I'm sure most Russian speakers have no clue what the instrumental case is, but they know how to use it perfectly. This is precisely why an approach called immersion French and a variant called intensive French developed in the school system in English-speaking Canada in the early seventies. Teaching formal French grammar to children is basically useless and produces the well-known syndrome, "I studied French for years and can't say more than two words." On the other hand, using the language, and of course the implicit grammar, to teach all subjects is much more effective because the language is acquired spontaneously as part of the learning process in school. Immersion French has its limitations, but it is light years ahead of what was there before in terms of actual ability to use the language. Sure, some adults, like many of us here at HTLAL, may enjoy reading grammar books that most young people would find supremely boring. In that sense, mature language learners, especially those with multiple languages under their belt and an interest in linguistics, will probably be better formal learners of grammar than teenagers. But put those teenagers in the right situation and you will probably see them outperfom the older learners when it comes to really speaking the language. What is the "right situation?" I think some form of immersion is the best way to learn a language at an early age. So, if that 12 year old were to spend a year in a Russian school and living with a Russian family, they would pick up that instrumental case quickly without even thinking about it. Edited by s_allard on 11 May 2011 at 6:13pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| RufusTFirefly Triglot Newbie Germany fremdsprachenblog.wo Joined 4950 days ago 2 posts - 6 votes Speaks: EnglishC2, German, French | Message 11 of 20 11 May 2011 at 6:27pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Hi everyone, this is my first post here, but the topic is nice, so I'll give it a go.
Somehow, most people think that children find it easy to learn new language. Adults tend to be envious. No, I don't think so. As for the foreign language situation, like school: This fails miserably for most of the kids most of the time. A huge effort, a dismal effect. By and large not easy at all. In the second language situation (or first for that matter), kids work very hard for long hours, they take in huge amounts of input, they are focused, precise, and patient. That's not easy, it's hard work. I guess that kids are in learn mode by default, just by being there or by playing. If language comes along, that's what they learn. For adults, it's difficult to enter that mode, to stay in it, to be present, open, and to work that hard. If they do, they can be quicker than kids – look at you polyglots. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5385 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 12 of 20 11 May 2011 at 6:36pm | IP Logged | |||||
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It's harder to find language partners when you are older, at least where I live, because most foreign learners come when they are in university. Other than that, time is definitely a huge factor. Also, while I do have the means to travel in a way I didn't before, as a father and a husband, I can't just take off to go study Basque or Mongolian.
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| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5013 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 13 of 20 11 May 2011 at 7:23pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I am one of the young learners but I've been thinking about this a few times as I've seen my parents and other older people I know attempting to finally learn a language.
I'd say the worst disadvantage is the approach "older people have much more troubles learning languages" which is present quite anywhere. Members of these forums are an exception but what do most people hear and see when they ponder learning a foreign language? They see an advertising of a language school showing a group of people at their early twenties (if not younger) and a person, supposedly a teacher, of approximately the same age. Their friends discourage them because of their own failed attempts. Memories from school often don't help either. Therefore many people do not even start studying as they feel as if they had already failed. Those who start meet the second disadvantage-the lack of free time combined with their brain needing more of the time to learn new things. And, some lose motivation because they don't see fast progress. This is partially natural, but I'd say it's partially caused by the presumtion "I am old, so it will take me a lot of time". And it has something in common with people who keep being "false beginners" for years. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5385 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 14 of 20 11 May 2011 at 8:11pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I think Cavesa is right in that learning a language at a more mature age is probably a sign of humility or self-confidence.
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 Li Fei Pro Member United States Joined 5127 days ago 147 posts - 182 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 15 of 20 12 May 2011 at 3:22am | IP Logged | |||||
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Good topic! I just finished my second semester of college Mandarin, and in my class there was a high schooler
(not sure of her age, but too young to drive); two traditional-aged college students of about 20; and me, age 51. If I had to rank the ability/skill of all four of us, it would be: 1) 16-year-old 2) 51-year-old 3) 20-year-old 4) 20-year-old The sixteen-year-old had the advantage of some home familiarity with Asian languages, plus she worked like a dog. I also studied as much as possible given my job/child/husband. The two 20-year-olds studied some, but had many distractions and the expectation that one shouldn't have to spend much time outside of class to learn stuff. I conclude that age doesn't matter too much. "Mature learner advantages" include motivation, knowing how to work hard, knowing how to study and learn, and not taking myself too seriously. "Mature learner disadvantages" include lack of time due to multiple responsibilities. I am a little slower and have a lost some memory cells since my own twenty-something days. But my motivation and ability to focus more than make up for those few lost brain cells. I should add that one of my time-consuming responsibilities, my daughter, is also my biggest motivator, since she's adopted from China and is the reason we are traveling there this July. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| cathrynm Senior Member United States junglevision.co Joined 6129 days ago 910 posts - 1232 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Finnish | Message 16 of 20 12 May 2011 at 10:53pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I swear, I don't think I'm that much different now than when I was younger. I don't think I ever had the ability to just absorb language -- or I remember hearing my grandmother rattle on endlessly in Finnish to my mother while riding the bus or the car and having absolutely no idea what she was saying. And I remember in school Spanish and German class really sweating over the week's word list. After about the 3rd year of German, I remember watching German movies and picking out a few words here and there, but not really following, and it's oddly similar to my feeling of watching Japanese TV now. I developed a large declarative knowledge of the language, but not much fluency.
Also, I was plenty busy as a child or as a younger student. I was always worrying about grades or homework or something. I don't remember vast amounts of free time back then either, really. At least not in any time after the age of 12 or so. The main difference really for me now, is that I'm listening more with the iPhone mp3 player, and I have Anki, and I use this to jackhammer words into my brain. I've lost the anxiety about learning vocabulary that I used to have, which makes the process less stressful, I think. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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