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Learning Language at 14 vs 20 | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| snipes Newbie Jamaica Joined 4997 days ago 4 posts - 4 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 17 of 55 23 March 2011 at 8:35pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Hi Arekkusu, i believe you are right that it's not a piece of cake for even a 14 year old
child you have to put your shoulders to the wheel at some point in time. i guess i should have stated my view of been in an immersion environment makes it the piece of cake especially for them. and also for 20years and older if you are not afraid to unleash what you know and make the necessary mistakes. "there is nothing greater or worse than fear than fear itself" Abe Lincoln i believe said this. i believe the power of confidence conquers fear. Cheers! Edited by snipes on 23 March 2011 at 8:47pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| snipes Newbie Jamaica Joined 4997 days ago 4 posts - 4 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 18 of 55 23 March 2011 at 8:46pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Hi Arekkusu, i believe you are right that it's not a piece of cake for even a 14 year old child you have to put your shoulders to the wheel at some point in time. i guess i should have stated my view of been in an immersion environment makes it the piece of cake especially for them. and also for 20years and older if you are not afraid to unleash what you know and make the necessary mistakes. "there is nothing greater or worse than fear than fear itself" Abe Lincoln i believe said this. i believe the power of confidence conquers fear. Cheers! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Phantom Kat Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5064 days ago 160 posts - 253 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: Finnish | Message 19 of 55 24 March 2011 at 12:33am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I've also heard that the reason children can master accents to native levels is that most children are not afraid of looking dumb or of embarrasing themselves. They'll try to roll their R's all day or master those tones whenever possible while an adult may be generally more shy about looking like a such a foreigner/beginner in front of the natives. I know if you suddenly drop me in the middle of Finland I'll freeze up and mangle simple things like, "How do you do?" Not all children are so outgoing and not all adults are afraid of making mistakes, but for the most part I think this theory has merit.
- Kat Edited by Phantom Kat on 24 March 2011 at 12:34am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 20 of 55 25 March 2011 at 3:14am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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We've had this argument many times here, as others have pointed out, but I think it's good to revisit some of the basic issues. Firstly, let's make a distinction between studying a language formally and acquiring a language spontaneously. In my opinion, it is absolutely self-evident that in an immersion setting with spontaneous acquisition, the younger the better. I'm sure many people here have witnessed examples of children who have picked up a language with perfect pronunciation in 4-6 months, if not less. How many examples of 20 or 36 year olds have any of us seen accomplish something similar? This is something we at HTLAL know a lot about. We are always talking about the difficulties of learning a language. Children don't talk about learning a language; they just do it.
Secondly, the explanation of this phenomenon lies in some combination of neurological and psycho-sociological factors. Although I've argued in past in favor of the "critical age" theory, I do recognize that it might be more a question of the learning environment. Whatever the reason, statistics clearly show that early exposure to a language is probably the most important factor in the acquisition of native-like proficiency. This does not mean, of course, that a 36 year old person cannot achieve native-like proficiency. It just means that it is rare, statistically speaking. Thirdly, the formal study of language is very different from spontaneous acquisition or learning. Here, age may be an advantage. A 20 year old brings maturity, study habits and a level of motivation that a 14 year old may not have. So, the older person may have a greater knowledge of grammar and all sorts of metalinguistic stuff but not be able to speak the language very well. I think adults make better students of language but not better speakers. You can have a university degree in a language and not be able to speak it like a native. With reference to learning French, something Arekkusu knows a lot about, I can say that I have never met someone who has learned French after the age of 30 and speaks it as fluently as a native. On the other hand, every day I see teenagers and young children switch effortlessly between French and English and sometimes even a third language. I ask Arekkusu, and anybody else, a simple question: How many adults learners of French (or any other language) have they seen develop native-like proficiency? Edited by s_allard on 25 March 2011 at 4:59am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Darklight1216 Diglot Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5101 days ago 411 posts - 639 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German | Message 21 of 55 25 March 2011 at 3:33am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I'd like to hear some of those stories. My friend's daughter is four months old and she hasn't said a word. Seriously though, I'm wondering what you mean by "pick up a language with perfect pronounciation." All of the young children that I know (say 3-6 years) most certainly do not have perfect pronounciation. "Daddy, can I haf da juice, pweeese?" And they've had several years, not just months to get it down. I've certainly accomplished something similar to that (without moving to France and living with two full-time tutors), but like I said, I'm not sure exactly what your definition is. Depending on said definition, you might think that Benny the Irish Polyglot has accomplshed more in his three month missions than most children do. Edited by Darklight1216 on 25 March 2011 at 3:49am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Matt314 Newbie United States musicartplus.blogspo Joined 4995 days ago 9 posts - 10 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian | Message 22 of 55 25 March 2011 at 4:01am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I agree with this fully. In junior high, i took Spanish for 3 years and I can't even have a basic conversation. Although I wasn't really looking to learn it, the curriculum is terribly planned and doesn't help you learn naturally. Now I've been taking Italian in high school, and I've also been independently studying. Although I'm older, I have more drive to learn the language, and I think it's easier ten when I was younger. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 23 of 55 25 March 2011 at 4:34am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I must admit that my post was not totally clear. I wasn't really thinking of 3-4 year olds learning a second or first language. I was thinking more of 10-14 year olds learning a second language -- I'm thinking here of immigrant children particularly. The classic example I see nearly every day is that of immigrant families, let's say Mexicans, made up of parents in their early 30s with young children. In less than six months, the children speak French and often English with no noticeable accent. What about the parents? How are they doing in French or English? I'll let you guess? That clarification made, and I recognize the imprecision of my original remarks, I come back to my original position: all the scientific and anecdotal evidence support the common observation that early exposure is conducive to developing true proficiency in a foreign language. In passing, I would like to say that the debate here is not really about the teaching of languages to children in schools. I would agree that most language teaching in elementary and high schools is probably useless. In fact, that is a whole other debate. I alluded to that in my point about formal study of language. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 24 of 55 25 March 2011 at 5:20am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Let me be more precise here. When I speak of perfect pronunciation, I should qualify it to mean age-appropriate native-like phonetic performance. In other words, a 10 year old immigrant child will sound like a 10 year old native born speaker. As a matter of fact, I'm always in awe of the fact that by the age of 10, most children have a mastery of the workings of spoken language that most adult second language learners will never have. As for Benny the Irish Polyglot, his linguistic achievements are outstanding and show what can be achieved with the right approach. His French is very good, but I wouldn't say that he sounded like a native. On the contrary, it shows the limitations, at least phonetically, of starting after the age of 14. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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