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’Stickiness’ of Language | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Nudimmud Groupie United States Joined 5193 days ago 87 posts - 161 votes  Studies: Greek, Korean | Message 1 of 7 30 March 2011 at 8:17am | IP Logged | ||
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I'm always a bit reluctant to pose general questions like do speakers of language 'x' have attribute 'y'. But such questions are such fun to ask and irresistible for me not to post opinions to, that I guess I'll go ahead and add my own. Lately I've been studying Korean and have become involved with a Korean language group as well as practising Korean with several friends and acquaintances. One of the recurring themes seems to be how easy it is to forget Korean. For example:
- The brother of a friend of mine who was born in Korea and came over when he was about 7 and lived in house where Korean was spoken consentingly can't speak Korean, even though he can understand it. - A co-worker of mine who's Korean and whose wife is Korean (both moved to the US as young adults) only speak Korean at home to their Kids. In addition, one pair of grandparents who know almost no English live close by and visit often. Yet since the kids started attending school their Korean ability has slowly faded. In fact my colleague even sends them to Korean school on the weekends yet they're speech is slow and unsure and they've forgotten words and the way to say things that they used to know. - Several of the Koreans in my language group were born in Korea, grew up in the US with Korean speaking parents who could barely speak English. Yet, in one case a member completely forgot how to speak Korean, and couldn’t understand his parents when they talked in Korean, and in another case the member can't speak Korean at all but can still understand quite a bit. - I read one blog post from a guy whose parents knew absolutely no English, while he knew basically no Korean, just enough ask for food or say he was sick. He took Korean from the very beginning in college -- to Harvard! -- and struggled severely with it -- and it was only then after several courses that he was able to carry on a conversation, for the first time in his life, with his parents! The question I posit is whether there are some languages that are especially prone to attrition in the context of another language, perhaps due to major differences in the phonetics of the language -- for example, French would be less likely to be lost then Korean in an English speaking country, but perhaps, would be lost faster than Korean in Japan? Of course it's also possible that it's just my over-active imagination and above mentioned (and dangerous) love of of finding peculiarities in languages and cultures and then generalizing them. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| hjordis Senior Member United States snapshotsoftheworld. Joined 5187 days ago 209 posts - 264 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 2 of 7 30 March 2011 at 8:52am | IP Logged | ||
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This is interesting. A little bit different, but possibly related: as someone trying to learn Korean, I find I have trouble remembering it as well. This might be because I'm a beginner, but I can't really remember that happening with my other languages.
Yet, somehow I feel like one language shouldn't be easier to forget than another, either by a native speaker or a learner. Edited by hjordis on 30 March 2011 at 8:52am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| B-Tina Tetraglot Senior Member Germany dragonsallaroun Joined 5528 days ago 123 posts - 218 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Polish | Message 3 of 7 31 March 2011 at 11:34pm | IP Logged | ||
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As far as I can tell, the more exceptions a language has, the more input you need to retain that stuff. A language with a lot of exceptions is hence more prone to attrition, without regard to the other language in question.
For instance, if you were to retain English language, you'd basically have to retain only two forms of the number "2": "two" and "second". If you were to retain Polish, on the other hand, you'd had to remember about 22 different forms (might be even more, I just skimmed the 3 pages in my polish grammar concerning the number 2) of that very same number, depending on gender, case and whether or not you're referring to a collective. So you need to stay in contact with all the specific irregularities of a language, and the more it offers, the more difficult it gets. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| CheeseInsider Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5123 days ago 193 posts - 238 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin* Studies: French, German | Message 4 of 7 03 April 2011 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | ||
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The blog you mention about the son not being able to communicate with his parents seems awful far-fetched. I
don't know about you but if I couldn't speak to my mother in Mandarin and she couldn't speak to me in English, I would use my brain and find a solution. I wouldn't wait to get to college before starting to learn Mandarin. I would google translate phrases if I had to, I would imagine that not being to communicate with your own parents whom you live with would be so frustrating and depressing that you would go crazy if you didn't learn the language. It would be like the sink or swim situation you would experience if you moved to France and didn't speak a word of French, but 1000x more personal. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Snowflake Senior Member United States Joined 5960 days ago 1032 posts - 1233 votes Studies: Mandarin | Message 5 of 7 03 April 2011 at 4:56pm | IP Logged | ||
I suspect being unable to communicate is meant in a general sense. In a general sense, that describes my interaction with my mother at various points as well as that of other 2nd generation American born Chinese that I know. Edited by Snowflake on 03 April 2011 at 9:22pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Sandman Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5409 days ago 168 posts - 389 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Japanese | Message 6 of 7 04 April 2011 at 1:31am | IP Logged | ||
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I would guess that major differences in the grammar structure would be important. I have a hard time believing I could really "forget" Spanish, and indeed I have taken long breaks from using it and jumped back in fairly easily. I think it is partly because the general structure of how sentences are constructed isn't all that different from English. It's a language that is also a lot easier for me to just make things up on the fly if I want to speak, and even though it may not be perfect I feel fairly comfortable I could at least get close enough to the correct grammar to be understood, even without really studying grammar.
Now, when it comes to something like Japanese (and therefore probably similar with Korean) since the word order is so different, and particle use is so foreign to English it seems like if I didn't stay on top of my studying it would be very easy for the rust to accumulate quickly and be harder to get back. Using English grammar rules is to some degree using the grammar rules of the romance languages, but not much for Korean or Japanese. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| elarsen21 Diglot Newbie United States Joined 4986 days ago 7 posts - 18 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish | Message 7 of 7 04 April 2011 at 2:07am | IP Logged | ||
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This is a fascinating topic, and amazing stories about people forgetting their first language!
I have often wondered whether a threshold (in terms of time and effort) exists at which a new skill becomes "like riding a bicycle," unforgettable despite years without practice. This surely depends on the complexity of the skill, e.g. opening a door vs. performing a gymnastics routine. Language is quite a complex skill, and some languages are more complex than others. Hmm... Any neurolinguistics doctors in the house? 1 person has voted this message useful |
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