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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 1569 of 3959 12 December 2009 at 10:49pm | IP Logged | ||
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SER: Сам посетио Београд пре неколико месеци, и такође посетио Зоолошки врт и купили мало књига: "Кроз Београдски зоолошки врт". Књига описује животињских врста у зоо, један по једанm и кад сам читао, скоро сам мислим да их разумем, јер знам речи руског. Пример:
When I last visited Beograd I also visited its zoo and bought a zoo guide (called something like 'acces to the beogradski zoopark garden'). It has descriptions of species there, and even though my Serbian still is rudimentary I can mostly understand the descriptions because I recognize the words from Russian (but to write in Serbian I still have to look most words up in my Serbian or Croatian dictionaries). Let's take an example: Орао белоплеђан (Haliatetus pelagicus) ---> I had to look Orao ('eagle') up, but got in trouble with белоплеђан. OK, бело- is 'white' but 'плеђан' was not in my Serbian dictionary. However 'плечан' means shoulder in Russian, and the bird indeed has white shoulders - case solved. Породица: Accipitridae (no problems) Распрострањеност: Камчатка, обале Аласке: (still smooth sailing) Станиште: речне и језерске долине, морске обале, шyме (OK, 'Станиште' simply had to mean something about the whereabous of this species, but my Serbian dictionary said "station". My two Croatian dictionaries had the related word 'stanica' (in Latin letters), but again translated as "station" plus some other stopping places for different kinds of public transport. Still, my hunch is vindicated by the fact that a series of biotopes follows. "речне" isn't in any of my dictionaries, but in Russian "речной" is the adjectival form of "река" stream, which fits snugly into this context. I checked that "шума" means 'forest', but it didn't come as a surprise Животни век: преко 40 година: the number 40 gives it away, - the bird can be 40 years old. But all words were known, including the only one that isn't found in Russian too (preko = around) Делимичне целице: I had to look both words up. The first word was there ("partly"), but not the second. However "селище" means 'settlement' in Russian (and 'село' means village), so I first thought that 'целице' meant 'sedentary'. But then I checked the largest of my Croatian dictionaries and found out that 'selo' is village, so in Croatian the form might be 'selice'. OK, it was 'selica', but to my astonishment a 'selica ptica' is a migratory bird. So is the Орао белоплеђан half sedentary or half migratory? I think I have solved the problem: the common mute swan црвенокљуни лабyд is sedentary in Denmark and probably also in Beograd, and it is described as "станарице". So "целице" presumably means 'migratory'. I won't write more here about this research project right now, but it does illustrate both how knowledge of a related language can aid the comprehension of a text, but also that this tactic has its pitfalls. Apart from that the Beozoo may not be the most ideal zoo in the world, but I visited it some years ago, and I had a better impression of it this time. However I forgot to revisit the worst part of it this time (maybe because it was hot, 37C), where some carnivores were kept under absolute appalling conditions in some sort of inner courtyard at my first visit. I do hope they have cleaned up that black spot in the meantime. But that's another story. PS: I just heard that the most noisy animal in the world is the small pistol shrimp (or snapping shrimp), which can produce sound pulses of over 200 dB just by clicking its claw. The loadest human scream at a competition in Scarborough (England) clocked in at 129 dB (a starting jetplane produces around 110). And I got a sore throat just from trying to participate in the 'Julefrokost' ('Christmas lunch') at my job yesterday. Edited by Iversen on 12 December 2009 at 11:55pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 1570 of 3959 13 December 2009 at 12:56pm | IP Logged | ||
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RU: Я как раз смотрел программа на датском телевидении о русском космонавтике, скорее, об аспекте, который состоял в создании искусственных средах, где прилагаются люды жил месяцами в изоляции. Название программы показывает, что перспектив экспериментов был долгосрочными космическими полетами на Марс. Но этот проект был отложен, как мы знаем, и вместо этого сосредоточился на русском длительного пребывания на космической станции на орбите вокруг Земли. Однако, эти космические станции - такие, как МИР - никогда не был поставлен на огромный самодостаточный теплиц, которые были планировены для поездок на Марс.
Как обычно на датское телевидение, передача была показана оригинальное аудио с субтитрами. I have just watched a program on DR1 (the main Danish TV station) about Russian space activities, more precisely the aspect of creating artificial environments where people had to live for months on end in isolation in a selfsustaining environment with green plants. The name of the program suggested that the long-term perspective of the experiments was manned space flights to Mars. But this project was shelved as we all know, and instead the Russians focused on long stays on space stations in orbit around the Earth. However these space stations - such as MIR - were never transformed into the immense self-contained greenhouses which were planned for travel to Mars. As usual on Danish TV the program was broadcast with the original audio and subtitles. IT: In questo momento vedo il programma Linea Verde di Raiuno. Visitiamo un luogo nelle montagne di Sardegna chiamato Ordosolo, e vediamo per esempio la fabbricazione degli copricapi tradizionali delle donne e l'allevamento di cavalli, capre, pecore e maiali - i suini sono neri con le zanne, e assomigliano più cinghiali degli carini porcellini rosa communi. Chissà se abbiano anche il sapore di cinghiale? Right now I am watching the Italian program Linea Verde with a program from a mountainous place called Ordosolo on the island of Sardinia. We have seen how the traditional headgears of the local women are made, and we have visited farms where horses, goats, sheep and pigs are reared. The pigs are black and have fangs like wild boars - methinks they also taste like wild boars? Edited by Iversen on 13 December 2009 at 1:23pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5865 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 1571 of 3959 13 December 2009 at 4:33pm | IP Logged | ||
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Klimaatconferentie Nieuws
Zaterdag was een spannende dag voor de klimaatconferentie in Kopenhagen. De Deense politie arresteerde bijna duizend mensen. De meeste zijn inmiddels vrijgelaten. RNW meldt dat ongeveer 40.000 activisten demonstreerden in de straten. Slechts een kleiner aantal mensen botsten met de politie. Het lijkt mij dat ze zijn voornamelijk holligans. Deze hooligans hebben waarschijnlijk geen interesse in het milieu. Ze genieten gewoon van problemen veroorzaken en genieten van de opwinding van de gevechten met de politie. Ik vraag me vaak af waarom een dergelijke-goed-omschreven en duidelijk-antisociale deel van onze samenleving kan niet effectief worden behandeld. De politie en de video's doen goed werk. Ik denk dat het probleem is met de zwakke justitie. RNW meldt ook: "Zondagmiddag om 3 uur luiden meer dan 800 kerken in Nederland de klokken voor het klimaat." Blijkbaar kerkklokken luidden over de hele wereld op hetzelfde moment ter ondersteuning van positieve actie tegen de klimaatverandering. Ik veronderstel dat dergelijke acties mogelijk zijn deze dagen met de hulp van het internet. Veel mensen geloven dat de huidige klimaatverandering een natuurlijke cyclus is. Ongeacht de reden, laat ons veronderstellen dat zelfs wetenschappers onderschatten de opwarming van de aarde. Stel dat wetenschappers opeens ontdekken dat deze opwarming is niet meer onder controle en de aarde zal een hete zandwoestijn in het jaar 2100 zijn, met niet meer leven op aarde. Kunt u zich voorstellen hoe het leven op aarde zou zijn als tijdens de komende negentig jaar? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| SII Senior Member Russian FederationRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5791 days ago 184 posts - 194 votes Speaks: Russian* Studies: English | Message 1572 of 3959 14 December 2009 at 7:52am | IP Logged | ||
This text is fully understandable -- but again with many mistakes in the endings etc. Few words are lame or unusable in this context. I rewrite the text without mistakes and emphasize they with bold. Italic I use for improvement style etc - i.e. not for formal mistakes. Underlined words/parts of word must be deleted. Я как раз смотрел программу на датском телевидении о русской космонавтике, а скорее, об аспекте, который состоял в создании искусственных средах, где прилагаются люди жили бы месяцами в изоляции. Название программы показывает, что перспектив отдалённой целью экспериментов были долгосрочными длительные космические полеты на Марс. Но этот проект был отложен, как мы знаем, и вместо этого сосредоточился на русском длительном пребывании на космической станции на орбите вокруг Земли. Однако, эти космические станции - такие, как "Мир" - никогда не были поставлен наоборудованы/снабжены огромными самодостаточными теплицами, которые были запланировены для поездок полётов на Марс. Как обычно на датском телевидении, передача была показана с оригинальной аудио озвучкой с субтитрами. Little comments. 1. You say abount environment with plural. This is correct, but it is better to use singular: "...в создании искусственной среды, где (or в которой) люди жили бы месяцами в изоляции". 2. "Перспектива" can be used in this context, but it is need to change the construction of the sentence. I don't the "global" changes and simply use the more good word. 3. After "однако" the comma uses when "однако" was used as the parenthetical word, but in this context "однако" sounds as it has been used in sense "но" ("but") -- and therefore the comma must not be used. If you want to use the parenthetical word, in this context it is better to use "Тем не менее, эти станции..." -- this word combination doesn't have the sense "но". Anyway, this is the "language subtlety", it is need to know the language really very well in order that may do the best choice for such words. 4. "Аудио" used in Russian in the "technical" sense, for example: аудиооборудование. For movies etc we use "звуковая дорожка" (audio track), "звук" or "озвучка" (the stress on у). The last word is used most often in "real" language although it isn't the "official" literary word. Edited by SII on 14 December 2009 at 7:53am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 1573 of 3959 15 December 2009 at 2:59am | IP Logged | ||
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OK, I can't complain this time - somehow I am learning that darned difficult language...
It is late in the night now so I haven't got time to write a lot. But just to indicate that I haven't disappeared totally from the world: SW: Jag har i dag läst en stor del av boken om flamenco, som jag lånade på biblioteket för ett par veckor sedan. Och varför jag skriver då inte detta på spanska? Ju, boken är på svenska - men lyckligtvis med alla specialudtryk på spanska. Eller snarare på den andalusiska dialekten där "cantador" blir till "contaor", "tocador" (spelare) till "tocaor" etc. Som ni säkert kan gissa, är flamenco inträffade i fattiga och obeaktade zigeunersamfund i södra Spanien. Musiken fångat den orientaliska trenderna från de många människor som bebodde området innan de intolerante katolska härskarna - "los reyes catolicos" - med inkvisitionens hjälp drev ut judar, araber och andra från deras rike. Det spanska ordet för zigenare - "giganos" - betyder faktiskt "egyptierna" eftersom folk trodde att de kom därifrån. Zigenerna blev uppenbarligen också utvisat, men många stannade trots förföljelse i det södra Spanien (i likhet med mindra grupper av kristne maurer och judar). I slutet av 1700tallet, under kung Carlos III, blev villkoren för zigenerna något avslappnad, och de första kända konstnärer inom flamenco kom från omkring 1800, - dock alla under pseudonym (med "El Planeta" ock "El Fillo"som de första). Det viktigaste kontaktpunkt för dessa musiker (som sällan spelade och sång för utomstående) var stadsdelen Triana i Sevilla, men också Sacromonte vid Granada var en betydlig ort för zigenarna. .... och ju längre jag inte i boken - men i morgon är också en dag --------- You will have to wait for the translation until tomorrow - it is almost 3 o'clock now, and I have to get some sleep EDIT: Did I really think I could get to sleep? Oh no, some controversy about Santa Claus and commercial Christmas etc. in the Cultural subforum spoiled that. So let me just add here that the flamenco music was developed as an expression meant for private expression of grief by Spanish gipsies, who from around 1500 to the late 1700s lived in extreme poverty and persecution because they hadn't followed an order by the 'Reyes Catolicos' to leave Spain. This kind of music also reflects some elements from the music of the Jewish and Moslem cultures that thrived in the Southern part of Spain until the 1400s. When their situation become less precarious some of these folk musicians became known, though in the beginning they all used pseudonyms and mostly performed for their own people. Only later their influence spread to the Spanish art music... but I haven't read that part of the book yet. Btw. the reason that I write in Swedish about something as Spanish as Flamenco is that the book is written in Swedish. Edited by Iversen on 15 December 2009 at 5:27am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| staf250 Pentaglot Senior Member Belgium emmerick.be Joined 5696 days ago 352 posts - 414 votes Speaks: French, Dutch*, Italian, English, German Studies: Arabic (Written) | Message 1574 of 3959 15 December 2009 at 11:41am | IP Logged | ||
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But why, maybe you'll find it in the book, the name of the dance is "flamenco"? The word means "flemish", no?
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| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 1575 of 3959 15 December 2009 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | ||
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You are on the right track! At page 56 in the book (which is written by Barbro Thiel-Cramér) it is stated that there are several theories, but the one proposed by 'Demofilo' (aka Antonio Machado y Alvarez) is that two events gave rise to the name: 1) the fact that king Carlos V ruled as Kaiser Karl I before he came to Spain, and he was raised in Gent in Flandern. When he accessed the throne a lot of Flemish immigrants came to Spain, where they were seen as unpleasant and unwanted foreigners. 2) New groups of gipsies arrived in this period, and for some reason they were named by the same name as the hordes of Flemish immigrants, i.e. Flamencos. Maybe the 'new' gipsies did in fact come from the Low countries (and Germany) instead of the Near Orient as those from the first wawe, but apparently that question is not something that has been thoroughly researched. Edited by Iversen on 15 December 2009 at 2:54pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| staf250 Pentaglot Senior Member Belgium emmerick.be Joined 5696 days ago 352 posts - 414 votes Speaks: French, Dutch*, Italian, English, German Studies: Arabic (Written) | Message 1576 of 3959 15 December 2009 at 3:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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It seems reasonable tough, I didn't know. About the king yes I knew.
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