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How to Become a Polyglot by D. Spivak | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Polyglots |  | |
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6945 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes  Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 25 of 73 19 February 2007 at 5:04pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I was reminded by some of the sections in Spivak's book of the times and places when a language learner might have to borrow his materials, or have to study his or her language in a library. We really do live in a golden age of language learning as far as access to materials and "input" of all sorts. Between Amazon, the Internet, DVD's, CD's, and mp3's, the Western living standards, and the relatively low cost of many materials in English, one forgets just how spoiled we are compared to previous generations. It's a surprise we aren't all fluent in a dozen languages. :) Edited by frenkeld on 19 February 2007 at 5:17pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Farley Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 7094 days ago 681 posts - 739 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, GermanB1, French Studies: Spanish | Message 26 of 73 19 February 2007 at 10:48pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Why do we debate terms such as “basic fluency”? I agree with Stuart, I think the cognitive differences between individuals account for the all the disagreement. I also think it comes down to the difference between strategy and tactics. The strategy is to internalize a certain number of phrases (“10,000 phrases has been a popular number); the tactics are where you find them and how you learn them. The strategy does not change but the tactics are adaptable. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Linguamor Decaglot Senior Member United States Joined 6620 days ago 469 posts - 599 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, French, Norwegian, Portuguese, Dutch | Message 27 of 73 20 February 2007 at 3:48am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
People have different beliefs about what it means to know a language and how languages are learned. One common belief among language learners is that learning a language involves studying grammar, memorizing vocabulary, doing pattern drills, etc., - conscious understanding of how the language works and/or practice manipulating the language. The expectation is that after a certain amount of study one will be able to understand and speak the language. The disagreements are usually about which study techniques are felt to be most effective.
Comprehensible input is hearing or reading language and understanding it. How the language that the learner is understanding is made comprehensible can vary - context (having a tutor point at objects and saying "this is a ..."), asking the meaning of a word while reading and then listening to a dialogue, looking up a word in a dictionary while reading, etc. This is what I meant when I said that how the input is made comprehensible does not matter.
A great deal of "comprehensible input" - language that you hear or read and understand. To be useful for language learning, it has to contain language that you have not yet acquired.
This assumes that language acquisition is comparable to other forms of learning, and that general learning principles apply. Most linguists and cognitive psychologists seem to believe that human language is species specific behavior, not simply a clever invention, and that general learning principles are inadequate to explain language acquisition. Edited by Linguamor on 20 February 2007 at 5:40am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6945 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 28 of 73 20 February 2007 at 7:14pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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[continuation - 6 of 8]
If the words are inflected in the [target] language, immediately enter a few related forms of the word - it will be easier to remember that way. For example, imagine that a foreigner studying Russian has run into the fact that in the plural some masculine nouns can form the genitive case in two different ways. Even for you it was not easy to understand immediately what the previous sentence said, wasn't it? Imagine what it will cost the poor foreigner! But there is no need to suffer at all. Just jot down for each of the two types an adequate example and write it down like this: ... - and then refer to the page in the textbook, where it is explained in detail why the Russians may say ..., but not ... If, however, the main parts of speech do not inflect, pay special attention to the "service words". These it would be good to record in some order. For example, having met the word "over", do not write it down by itself, better find in a diciontary other prepositions related to it, and write them down as follows: over | before <-- in --> behind | under I guarantee that this cross-diagram will forever etch itself in your memory. And so you've filled out the first fold-out of the notebook. If you haven't worked through the whole text in 40 minutes, do not rush it, you will have enough time for it the next time you stop by the library, in 1 or 2 days. Each lesson is structured the same way as before. Its first quarter you devote to the grammar portion of the notebook, then move your eyes up the page and work on the text. The third part is devoted to the right-hand page - the list of words and expression, and the last one - to a free-style reading of the text with an accompanying review of pronunciation. Having mastered the given portion, or continue with the text, or move on to the next one. [I am at a loss as to the meaning of the preceeding sentence within the context of this paragraph in either Russian or English.] Once in a while it is useful to go back to the lessons already covered, but repeat them, as we had already agreed, in quarters. Say, reviewing old grammar may take up most of the time allocated for the new, but it has no right to encroach on the time set aside for reading. There is no need to fear the fact that whole lessons will turn into incessant review because of this. What is strictly prohibited, is preparing the texts in advance with the words and grammar written out. The utility of that is about the same as that of a dinner prepared a week in advance. Your notebook is a very flexible form of self-study. Try to use its advantages, first of all the fact that it is easily adapatable to your tastes. Alternate texts on different topics, do not place in the notebook a single line that is not of acute interest to you, sketch out maps and cut out interesting clips from newspapers. The notebook will also help you with the reverse problem - to learn to translate from your native language into the target one. In that case, in place of the text we glue in a Russian text with the contents you need - it's understood, not the most difficult one. We find in it the key words, copy them onto the right [page]. We choose the simplest grammar for them, place it under the text - and you can practice translation until you succeed! Do not, however, be overzealous; calm, curiosity-driven patience will do. And of course, once again you need a lot of practice in all four language skills. First, to try to speak using every opportunity. ... [to be continued] Edited by frenkeld on 24 February 2007 at 6:18pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6945 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 29 of 73 21 February 2007 at 10:02am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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[continuation - 7 of 8]
First, to try to speak using every opportunity. Here there are special tricks too. First, set aside a couple of pages of the notebook for one or two scenarios of the simplest conversation: entry into the discussion ("Hello!"), the main part (for example, starting with "You know, I am studying your language, it is beautiful"), and exit ("I don't know much yet, so let's switch to Russian"). I assure you any normal interlocutor will be thrilled with you! And why not? You said something friendly ... in a simple, but understandable language. However, one should not stop at the thrills, Better ask yourself: where in this short conversation did I mess up linguistically? Where did I fall short by two or three phrases for the communication to be meaningful, and what were they? As you have already guessed, these missing phrases should go into the notebook as the subject of the next lesson. In a little while it is time to repeat the conversation. As soon as you feel that you are about to goof up, slip out of the conversation using one of pre-made phrases: "Your language is good, but difficult. I am tired, let's speak Russian now." And then analyze again where you fell short this time. The most interesting thing is that very few words are needed for any one conversation - at any rate, one can make do with four to five hundred. Of course, for that you'll need to keep the conversation strictly within the topics you are good at and lead it away from taking a turn into where you don't have enough vocabulary. Here you will, naturally, need a bit of cleverness, but didn't the reader ever have to steer a conversation into the desired direction in his native language anyway? At any rate, however cleanly you say your well-practiced greeting, the answer of your interlocutor will likely prove disconcerting. Most likely, you won't understand anything - and that's normal. You haven't yet worked on understanding speech. One must say that at this stage a person living in the very midst of the target language does not have a big advantage over someone who has never met anyone who speaks it. The best means here is the radio. By the way, our country has regular transmissions in 76 world languages, and the technical quality of transmissions is very good. So, take a radio set in your hands, you can even lie down - this lesson will be more relaxational, and the eyes will get some rest too - tune into the needed frequency... Don't understand anything? Don't worry! Here there are special tricks too. The simplest in the program are the news. They are usually come on each hour (or half hour). So, you will have the station signature melody first, the announcer will say in the target language "This is Moscow", and then the news will follow. To have an idea of their content, listen to them first in Russian ... Listening to the foreign speech you will now definitely understand something - the names, names of the countries and cities, international words. Listen to the news until the end and turn off the radio. For help, devote a few pages in the notebook to translating current news. And, of course, sit at the radio daily for about 10 minutes. Believe me, in 5 or 6 days you will start understanding a few things. I recommend that you listen to the radio with some regularity, moving on from news to commentary - into the depth of the program. Especially effective for this purpose is the time before sleep - remember when we talked about the brain being in a receptive state when transitioning from wake to sleep? In a month or two you will be unlikely to get stumped by a speaker with the most unclear speech. With reading[?] and writing we do the same: practice with a notebook what we need, starting with the basics - the device's brand name, the title of the article, the caption under the photograph. [to be continued] Edited by frenkeld on 24 February 2007 at 6:14pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6945 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 30 of 73 21 February 2007 at 10:02am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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[continuation - 8 of 8]
As you can see, no tests or exams are planned for you. But pretty soon you will be tortured by the question: how much have I really learned? Trying to estimate even the simplest - the number of words mastered - you will discover to be impossible. Leaf through your notebook, and you will see that some words appear in more than one place - they were easily learned and just easily forgotten, others you seem to know, but you can't recall them when reading, the third category of words you can't recall by looking at them in a word list, but they seem understandable in the text. Nothing to fear - it's a good sign, attesting to the fact that there is a natural, living process at work. Just like you can't determine how many leaves a plant has: some buds have barely opened, others have produced a green shoot with a leaf, while some have nearly faded ... On average, polyglots consider working through a 24 [dual-] page notebook a good start, and through two - a great one. Their opinion coincides pretty much with that of the scientists: at 15 words per each fold-out, the first notebook will have 360 words, with the same amount added in the second. If you add to this those 700 to 800 words you had mastered during the initial phase, you end up with the commonly accepted lower (1000 words) or upper (1500) lexical minimum. Things are similar with the grammar: if you take 3 to 4 days for each fold-out, you will reach the lower bound in 3 months, and the upper - in 3 more. Together with the initial phase, this will take you less than one year. This period of time is, according to the current ideas [on language learning], is sufficient for any person of average abilities for a general familiarization with a language. Yet more informative are, once again, the mistakes. When you meet a new word or expression, do not rush to a dictionary. The possibility that in the material you've already mastered, there is some hint or clue, is, in genereal, quite high. If the studies have been done right, you should be able to guess such things more and more often. And here you don't need any special talent - even in our own language we don't know all the words, but, having met a new one, we can tell with a high degree of reliability what part of speech it belongs to, and what it may mean in general terms. And when you add the pleasure of meeting an unclear idiom to that of guessing, you are getting closer to your goal. At this point start cutting back on working with your notebook, go back to it only before an exam, a difficult conversation and, of course, after a long break from the language. There will come a time when it will lie forgetten somewhere in a desk drawer, having seen you off to the full mastery of the language. If you are an observant person, you will by then know as much about the art of polyglottery as the author, and pershaps more. And just because this path has been trod before you by thousands of people, the fruits of learning will be no less sweet for that. To open dormant forces in you - what can be more exciting? Having placed in your hands a reliable guide, the author can rest at ease. Yes, this path is not simple, but you have all the prerequisites to walk it to the very end, being useful to other people from the very first steps. Reading the book, you have, of course, noticed, that we had to discuss many topics briefly, and many only barely touch upon. How often we have to put a period where we could've moved from in many different and always interesting directions. Well, walk these paths on your own. Welcome to the world of polyglots! [the end] Edited by frenkeld on 24 February 2007 at 6:10pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6945 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 31 of 73 21 February 2007 at 10:22am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Well, it's done. I have confirmed for myself that I am no translator. In some instances the English is not natural because I stuck to the Russian word order, in others I just made English mistakes. I would like to repeat what I said in the beginning, that the translation was entirely free-style, so I would advise against trying to match Spivak's Russian and my attempt at rendering it in English for learning purposes. I will try to touch up the English in a few roughest spots over the next few days, but the overall quality is pretty much what it is.
Mostly, I wanted to have an example of "old-fashioned" style of language learning from a (presumably) authoritative source. These kinds of methods don't get much airing in this forum. One should really add Kato Lomb's learning methods for another "old-fashioned" example, but I am saturated on translating for now, and in any case, her book was originally published in Hungarian and only translated into Russian. Furthermore, the Russian edition I have seen may not be the latest. Edited by frenkeld on 21 February 2007 at 10:25am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| daristani Senior Member United States Joined 7146 days ago 752 posts - 1661 votes Studies: Uzbek | Message 32 of 73 21 February 2007 at 11:18am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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frenkeld, I for one very much appreciate your having taken the time to translate this material. I can't compare your translation with the original Russian, but it still looks very good to me, and so I don't think your modesty in this regard is really justified. (I'm attributing it to your usual courtesy, rather than to any linguistic deficiencies.)
I had seen the Spivak book mentioned years ago in the Gethin and Gunnemrk book, and had thought to myself that it would be wonderful to see a translation of it. So you've done me and many others a really useful service with your summarized translation. Many, many thanks! 1 person has voted this message useful |
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