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 Language Learning Forum : Cultural Experiences in Foreign Languages |  | |
| jbbar Senior Member Belgium Joined 5800 days ago 192 posts - 210 votes  Speaks: English | Message 17 of 37 21 May 2009 at 1:23am | IP Logged | |||||
Let's see. America was founded by people who spoke English. As far as I know all of them were subjects of the British crown and were of Anglosaxon ethnicity. Although the American colonies gained independence from Britain the goal was to re-establish the rights the colonists were supposed to be entitled to but were deprived of by the British monarch at that moment in history. Are you suggesting that despite all that America and the UK have in common, the two countries should treat each other as if they had hardly ever had anything to do with each other? What about Canada, Australia or New Zealand? Not to mention former British India? Also, although I am most grateful to the British soldiers for their sacrifices, if it weren't for the Americans, we would either have surrendered to the Germans or we would eventually have been run over by the Russians and have faced the same fate as Eastern Europe. Well, I thank God for that evil Anglo-American alliance! I believe that many Flemish would share my opinion on this, the Wallonians probably as well, considering the battles fought in the Ardennes for instance (Battle of the Bulge, anyone?) where the Americans saved our asses from the Nazis big time. Nevertheless, you still have some hardcore anti-American Nazi sympathizers around who also tend to hate anything British. And also (in far greater abundance) your typical Eurosocialist snob claiming that American involvement in the war was 'opportunistic' so we needn't thank the American soldiers who volunteered to get their guts blown out to fight against fascist ideology on the other side of the Atlantic ocean. @ Jar-Ptitsa: when the British blame Brussels they are using Brussels as a metaphor representing the European Union because it's the European capital and the place where most decision-making takes place. They're not speaking of it as the capital of Belgium; they're criticizing the EU, not Belgium. I've noticed that the Dutch also often refer to the EU in this way. jbbar Edited by jbbar on 21 May 2009 at 2:59am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| jbbar Senior Member Belgium Joined 5800 days ago 192 posts - 210 votes Speaks: English | Message 18 of 37 21 May 2009 at 1:43am | IP Logged | |||||
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Anyway, this thread was actually about French so I'll answer Marlowe's original question here.
The French can come across as snobbish or arrogant but in my opinion this is mostly because they tend to be monoglots and chauvinistic about their native language so they tend to speak French whenever and wherever they can. In Flanders some would take offense because Dutch was repressed for a long time and French-speakers seem like 'invaders'. However, this is mostly with French-speakers from Wallonia. Flemish people aren't that chauvinistic about Dutch because they know it isn't that important on a global scale, not even on an European level. French and English are much more 'important' politically (I'm talking on an international or European level here). So when we go to France or Wallonia we will try to speak in French as much as possible. French speakers often tend to have an attitude that seems to suggest that they think that because French is important, everyone is expected to speak it, especially in a trilingual country like Belgium where French is one of the official languages. Personally I am not offended if a Frenchman or a Wallonian in Flanders addresses me in French. However, I personally know of French-speakers in Wallonia who refuse to speak Dutch in Flanders. I once had a Wallonian, who spoke and understood Dutch perfectly because he had lived in Flanders, critize my native language and dismiss it as a language that "doesn't work"! That's a very disrespectful attitude. Especially because I make the effort of studying their language and then they somehow take it for granted that we speak French but we shouldn't expect them to speak our language (despite that we're in the majority). On the other hand, I don't dislike French speakers because of the linguistic, political or cultural differences. Most people I've met from France, for instance, were polite and respectful people. Frankly, I've never had anyone laugh or getting angry over any language mistakes. However, I do get the impression that French speakers tend to expect you to speak their language well and aren't as tolerant of grammatical mistakes as English speakers tend to be. Then again, that's just my impression. jbbar Edited by jbbar on 21 May 2009 at 2:49am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Dark_Sunshine Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5765 days ago 340 posts - 357 votes Speaks: English*, French | Message 19 of 37 23 May 2009 at 1:20am | IP Logged | |||||
Yes, jbbar is correct. It's a kind of euphemism I think. It's usually used in the context of a critical remark about decision makers who are perceived to be 'out of touch' with the general population, or as isolated bureaucrats who insulate themselves in their offices in (for example) Brussels and have no sense of the 'real world'. British people also refer to their own government mechanisms in this way (i.e by saying 'Whitehall' or 'Westminster', when they mean parliament, or cabinet ministers) and it's almost always negative, emphasing the remoteness of politicians. Not everyone in Britain is anti Europe- I would really hate it if the UK government decided to pull us out of the EU. But I do worry that I'm in a minority in this regard. But back to the French, they do seem do have genuine difficulty in understanding a foreign speaker if the accent is less than perfect, unlike an English speaker who can usually understand the most mangled of English phrases. My French prononciation is passable, but my language exchange partner always asks me to repeat any words than contain a lot of 'R's (I sometimes have difficulty with them). It seems that an English sounding 'R', simply isn't an 'R' in French, whereas the reverse is not the case. Edited by Dark_Sunshine on 23 May 2009 at 1:27am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Anacreon Tetraglot Groupie United States Joined 5857 days ago 47 posts - 48 votes Speaks: English*, German, French, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 20 of 37 20 June 2009 at 8:52am | IP Logged | |||||
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I've had both experiences with French, mostly good however. Some will try to get you to stop speaking French I find, contrary to the kind words of many here, if your French is not perfect. There is a kind of rush for you to get on with it, and if they know English, they will not be patient enough to listen to you stutter (unfortunately, I've always been forward about practicing French and this has happened a few times). Overall, nonetheless, my attempts have been good, especially involving alcohol and food--which are to me what is so great about French people, slowly sipping and eating late into the light around a table full of friends before going out way too tired, although the language gets easier as you go along . . . It just seems there's the occasional "resident asshole" in every hostel or travel locale and, sadly, he can often be a frenchman.
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| Sennin Senior Member Bulgaria Joined 6034 days ago 1457 posts - 1759 votes 5 sounds | Message 21 of 37 20 June 2009 at 12:57pm | IP Logged | |||||
Using the capital, or place of power, as a metaphor for the government is not unique to British English. This is an example for 'metonymy' and is rather common in most languages. Truth be told, I've never heard 'Paris' be used for 'the French government'. Maybe that's an exception. They just say "Nicolas Sarkozy, this..", "Nicolas Sarkozy, that..." Edited by Sennin on 20 June 2009 at 1:23pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5838 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 22 of 37 20 June 2009 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Jar Ptitsa is one of the funniest and sweetest members on the forum. I always enjoy to read what she has to say.
Obviously nobody is complaining about Belgium or Brussels per se --- don't worry! :-) I can imagine it might happen 20 or so years from now though --- if federalism really kicks off in Europe and Brussels becomes the Washington of Europe... I'd rather it's Brussels though, than London, Berlin or Paris.... Thanks jbbar for explaining your views on French and Dutch in Belgium. I think most people in Europe are aware of the problems you have there, but don't understand it well at all. The Belgians on this forum seem to have moderate and reasonable views though. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Le dacquois Diglot Groupie France Joined 5647 days ago 54 posts - 69 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Spanish, German | Message 23 of 37 23 June 2009 at 6:23pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I've had good and bad experiences here in France speaking French. Usually the quality of the experience is directly related to the nature of the person I'm talking to. Nice person = good experience and vice-versa.
That said, as a paying customer in a shop or whatever, I do notice a distinct lack of enthusiasm in helping the customer. However, that's not because of my attempts at sounding French, that's just the way it is. At least that what the locals tell me. I think somewhere between the United States, Britain and France, the level of public service slowly degenerates, haha. If you're just talking to normal decent folk though, you'll find they're very appreciative and even sometimes impressed that you've taken the time to learn their language. It's not something that ever worries me. The only people who have had a problem with me have been complete snobs, not just for me but for French people too. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| anytram Bilingual Tetraglot Groupie France Joined 5669 days ago 85 posts - 89 votes Speaks: German*, Polish*, French, English Studies: Japanese | Message 24 of 37 24 June 2009 at 9:10am | IP Logged | |||||
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I only had good experience, but that might be due to my surroundings. First as a volunteer in a lace where about half of the staff has been non-French, then and university where people are learning languages and are pretty open-minded.
I'm not sure if it isn't just a Parisian thing, but you don't know service, especially in bars and cafés - About two weeks ago we were out with Bookcrossing fellows, I arrived, waited for the waiter, asked what a particular dessert was about, waited some more, because he disappeared, asked to get a dessert, he disappeared, then after a while came to inform me they had no more stock or whatever to do it, suggested I should take a look on the other desserts and disappeared. I left before he came back, still having other plans, after about 1h30. In the same place I had another waiter being impolite with me since I asked if they had ice cream (yes, I like desserts). Other places can be very similar - it is shocking even in comparison with Germany or Poland. (Hey, hey, I'm the costumer and like to buy something! Would you be so nice to sell it to me, because it is your job after all?) I've had doctors tell me mu French is great and better than those of many young French, but they still knew I wasn't French. They notice, they might ask about it, but there aren't many that correct you if you don't ask them pointedly (and repeatedly) to do so. [In my experience.] My only bad experience had been at an information desk or something like that for instruction about possible work or study possibilities. I don't remember the name of the place, it's some kind of info office for young people or the like. But then I don't know if they thought I wasn't belonging there or if they just had a horrible day... 1 person has voted this message useful |
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