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OK, so just what is a polyglot? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Polyglots |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6701 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 25 of 38 27 July 2011 at 10:17am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Let me add one more case to blurry the discussion: any Danish child will be exposed to tons of English through TV, films and music. Besides all Danish kids (at least those in ordinary schools) learn English in school, and this starts when they are around 11 years old. So all Danes should be perfectly bilingual? Well, we don't reckon it that way. Even the ripe old age of 11 years are way past the optimal starting point for language learning, and you also have to speak the language on a daily basis to become a fluent speaker. So I would argue that at least a section af Danish kids end up precisely in the middle of being a 'lingual' and a 'glot'. They know English fairly well (sadly at the expense of any other relevant languages), but they would not equate themselves with kids who have Anglophone parents and speak English at home.
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| Zwlth Super Polyglot Senior Member United States Joined 5224 days ago 154 posts - 320 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Arabic (Written), Dutch, Swedish, Portuguese, Latin, French, Persian, Greek | Message 26 of 38 28 July 2011 at 5:07am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Granted: most Danes are blurry cases. I'm sure most Swedes and Norwegians are equally fuzzy in this regard. Indeed, as the English language in particular becomes more universal, there are millions and millions of people all over the world about whom it would be hard to say whether they learned or acquired their knowledge of it.
That said, and at the risk of slipping back into that pedantry against which Journeyer warned, I have to note that what you wrote about the age of 11 is incorrect. Eleven is not "way past the optimal starting point for language learning"; rather, 11 is in fact THE optimal starting point for language LEARNING. According to Piaget's Stage Theory of Cognitive Development, 11 is precisely the age at which cognition reaches its final form of "formal operations," which means that a child is capable of deductive and hypothetical reasoning and general adult-like abstract thinking. Thus, 11 is the average age when a child can first use his intelligence and prior knowledge of his own language to consciously and systematically study and learn a foreign language. Plus, he probably still has a few years of pre-pubescent acquisition capabilities that will help him acquire native-like speech given adequate input. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6701 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 27 of 38 28 July 2011 at 11:18am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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OK, if you prefer to say that 11 years is way past the optimal starting point for language acquisition (contrary to 'learning') then that's okay with me. The kind of abstract thinking that can make grammar studies interesting is probably not accessible for younger children, and it is probably also unusual that they systematically collect words.
However my use of the word 'learning' covers all kinds of learning/studying/acquiring/aborption of language(s) - it is all 'learning'. It was probably Krashen who first cut out a slice of the broad 'learning' concept and dubbed it acquisition, and formal studying then became 'learning' (which he apparently didn't fancy too much). If I switched to his terminology I would implicitly also support his way of seeing the world so I personally keep on speaking about different methods (intensive versus extensive) rather than about learning versus acquisition. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| portunhol Triglot Senior Member United States thelinguistblogger.w Joined 6250 days ago 198 posts - 299 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: German, Arabic (classical) | Message 28 of 38 01 August 2011 at 11:05pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I really like and agree with this and just thought that I'd take the idea a bit further. I think that's very nice that you Belgians, Dutch, Scandinavians, Indonesians, Indians, many Africans etc. grow up in societies where a functional knowledge of three to five languages is normal. Honestly, I think that's great. But just because you do doesn't mean everyone else does. Most people living in the Western Hemisphere, Spaniards, Portuguese, Italians, British, Russians, Ukrainians, Polish, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Australians, New Zealanders, etc. grow up in either a monolingual or bilingual society. It takes much more effort for us to learn three or more languages because our societies almost discourage it. If you inherit one billion dollars or earn one billion dollars you are still a billionaire. Does it make sense to say that someone isn't really a billionaire until she has 1.5 billion. Does it make sense to say that her money doesn't count because she inherited it? Edited by portunhol on 01 August 2011 at 11:08pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Zwlth Super Polyglot Senior Member United States Joined 5224 days ago 154 posts - 320 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Arabic (Written), Dutch, Swedish, Portuguese, Latin, French, Persian, Greek | Message 29 of 38 03 August 2011 at 8:38am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Someone who inherits a billion dollars is "old money" and will view a self-made billionaire as a parvenu nouveau riche. Thus, they will not hobnob. Apart from their own prejudices, they are indeed likely to use their money in different ways: an heir is more likely to simply maintain his investments, while a tycoon is more likely to continue to strive to make still more.
Likewise with multilinguals and polyglots: you are unlikely to find someone who has acquired five languages setting about to learn any more, whereas you are quite likely to find someone who has learned five languages hanging around this forum planning and plotting to learn a sixth, a seventh, and an eighth. The parallels between those who have a lot of money and those who have a lot of languages do not hold up after this, though. In our materialistic world, you will receive respect and special treatment simply for being rich, no matter how you got your wealth. Far from anyone outside of this forum saying a multilingual's languages don't count because he inherited them, society is actually accepting and understanding of multilingual abilities, whereas it is uncomprehending, suspicious, or dismissive of polyglottery. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6701 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 30 of 38 03 August 2011 at 9:55am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Zwlth has a point regarding the difference in future plans for those who got their languages 'for free' as children and those who worked hard later to learn them. If you never have studied a language using classroom courses and/or homestudy you may not know how to do things, and you may not be inclined to take the first step to learning an additional language ... experience shows that even older people out of the blue can decide to learn a language, but without some early training in language learning (read studying) they may discover that it is hard to learn a new set of study habits.
But in those countries where children learn foreign languages in school even a bi- or trilingual pupil wille normally be confronted with classes in languages they haven't learnt at home, and even learning to write essays and learning some grammar in your own language will give you some idea about the processes you need to learn new languages. And some of the things that goes into learning other subjects are also relevant for language students. As for the attitude to polylingualism/glottery it may be different in different places, but it is in my view impossible to separate separate languages and membership in the corresponding subcultures. For example you will probably belong to the Inuit if you learn Greenlandic as a child, even if you live in Copenhagen, and your family will almost certainly be immigrants from Pakistan if you have learnt Urdu as a child in Malmö. If you live in Africa in a multilingual place it is almost certain that that place also is multicultural. And language is just one aspect of this. This notion of cultural ties even applies to those who don't have family ties. If a Danish child with 16 grandgrandgrandparents from Nørre Snede in Jutland actually acquires Turkisk from his/her friends and keeps the language alive into adulthood, then it will probably be through intense contacts with immigrants. And being able to speak fluent Turkish will probably be seen of people around you as a sign that you have such ties, even if you stand there with your blue eyes and tell them that you only learnt the language for fun at the age of 62. The main exception from this rule is English: because almost all Danes learn that language it will be accepted that you learnt it without having any special roots in an Anglophone country. And then people won't care about your grandparents, they will just be interested in your level. The more common it is to learn a certain language here in school or through selfstudy, the less likely it is that they will assume that you belong to a certain ethnicity based subculture.
You could also meet the opposite argument: the one who was born to inherit a lot of money will probably be a lazy brat. The one who earned his/her money the hard way is probably smarter and more hardworking.
Yes, for the reasons I mentioned above: it can be hard to do something totally new, such as learning languages by formal studies without a supporting environment.
Not granted. For the reasons stated above you may be classified as belonging to a high- og lowstatus group because of your language skills independent of how you got them. Actually the word 'tosproget' (bilingual) is taken by some here to signify that you didn't learn any of your languages well, and on top of that you may face prejudice against certain ethnic groups. Please don't try to convince me that the same doesn't apply to Latinos in the USA. The views on later language learning ('polyglotism') are probably more different in different places. Here it is relatively common (though still seen as somewhat nerdish), but I could understand if it was seen as directly weird in places without a need (and tradition) for language learning. Edited by Iversen on 03 August 2011 at 12:26pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Zwlth Super Polyglot Senior Member United States Joined 5224 days ago 154 posts - 320 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Arabic (Written), Dutch, Swedish, Portuguese, Latin, French, Persian, Greek | Message 31 of 38 03 August 2011 at 11:55am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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During a job interview, scenario 1:
A: You speak Russian, Chinese, French, and German in addition to English?! How is that? B: Well, my father is Russian, my mother is Chinese, I grew up in Switzerland where both French and German are official languages, and I went to an international school where English was the language of instruction. A: That's wonderful. [Thinking: wow, she's lucky, and we'll be fortunate to have her on our team because her language abilities will be a nice perk]. During a job interview, scenario 2: A: You speak Russian, Chinese, French, and German in addition to English?! How is that? B: Well, I majored in French in college, and because I was good at it, I minored in German, too. After I graduated, I wanted to take time off before graduate school to go live in Europe and work on them. So I did, and while I was there, I realized that Russian was a really important language, too. So, I decided to take more time off so that I could study it as well. And, after I started to get it down, I thought to myself that Chinese is actually the biggest and most important language in the world, so I really should know it. But, I didn't have any money left, and at any rate I thought maybe I had enough experience studying languages in school now that I could try to teach it to myself, so I joined this how-to-learn-any-language forum so that I could get support and advice for how to best memorize the characters and master the tones. I'm really into it now so I try to divide my study time to give me a couple of hours a day with it and a couple of hours a day maintaining and using my other languages. Once I get it down, I'm going to go for Japanese and Korean as well because they should be easy with my background in Chinese. A: That's wonderful. [Thinking: what a delusional weirdo looser, and what a waste of time and energy]. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6701 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 32 of 38 03 August 2011 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Scenario 2:
A: You speak Russian, Chinese, French, and German in addition to English?! How is that? B: Well, I majored in French in college, and because I was good at it, I minored in German, too. Then I set myself the task to learn Russian and Chinese too, and because I now knew how to study, I learnt them both within two years. When I set myself a goal I usually reach it. A (thinking): Well, maybe it isn't relevant here, but that person could probably also get other things done. Morale: don't go into details unless they are relevant 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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