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Our Father, who art in Heaven..... | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Cultural Experiences in Foreign Languages | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5521 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes  Speaks: Swedish* | Message 9 of 21 23 November 2009 at 1:00pm | IP Logged | |||||
I never had any trouble with Our Father, and I definitely don't think it should be "modernised". Being a Christian is a huge commitment, learning a few archaic prayers will not significantly add to the burden. Furthermore the old version, which actually isn't old at all, less than a century, sounds much better. In fact, many Biblical expressions in daily speech are taken from even older version, like the Bible of Charles XII. In many other countries, the entire service uses language that is significantly older. The Greek Church uses Koine from the time of Christ, the Ethiopians use Geez, the Copts use Coptic and most of the Slavs use Church Slavonic, which is recent compared to these others but still medieval. Regarding the specific points you mention, the accent in Fader vår does make it clear that it couldn't mean Father Spring, just like the meaning of /anden/ ("the duck" or "the spirit"/"(Holy) Ghost") is clarified from the usage of acute and grave accent. Furthermore, the word hallowed remains unchanged in the new translation, they only changed the word order and the word for "become": Helgat varde Ditt namn - Hallowed be Thy name Låt Ditt namn bli helgat - Let Thy name be hallowed Finally, the word "helg" IS derived from "helga", just like "holiday" really means "holy day"! 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| parasitius Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5998 days ago 220 posts - 323 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: Cantonese, Polish, Spanish, French | Message 10 of 21 23 November 2009 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Even having gone to parochial school I was terribly confused about the Our Father. I
thought "art" was an old word for "aren't" and "hallowed" mean "hallow" or meaningless. I knew it to be absurd, but the only way I could understand it was blasphemously. The "trespass" part was no problem though. After having said it for so many years, I guess I didn't actually find out the real meaning of hallowed and art until age ~14-15. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| masmavi Triglot Newbie Germany Joined 5708 days ago 9 posts - 17 votes Speaks: German*, English, French Studies: Spanish, Yiddish, Turkish, Italian | Message 11 of 21 24 November 2009 at 1:56am | IP Logged | |||||
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The German version is really easy to understand even for children.
I found this really interesting article on Wikipedia http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprachvergleich_anhand_des_Vate runsers It is in German, but it has several charts that compares the Lord's Prayer in a lot of languages of different language families. PS: There should be no gap between Vaterunser in the link. I don't know why it does that. If you want to see it, just copy and paste and than remove the empty space between Vate and runser. Edited by masmavi on 24 November 2009 at 2:22am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5838 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 12 of 21 24 November 2009 at 2:37am | IP Logged | |||||
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Yeah Gustafu - obviously as an adult I appreciate the old version and have no trouble understanding the words. For style (and tradition) I prefer the old version.
But then, I am an adult, fairly well-read and well educated... What about children, immigrants or people who are just not that academically minded? There is definitely room for two versions; the old one and a modern one. I don't go to a Swedish speaking church very often, but a while back I happened to be in a service where they read out the modern version. It "felt" very odd... As did a few other things in that service but that's a different story. In the USA there seems to be what amounts to a "war" between Christians who believe that the King James version of the Bible is superior to any other Bible since it was translated from slightly different sources than most other Bibles in English. I suppose anybody supporting the "King James" side of this argument would support only one version of Our Father. This Bible was handed out for free in the London Underground a while back "The Message"
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 Hencke Tetraglot Moderator Spain Joined 6894 days ago 2340 posts - 2444 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Finnish, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 13 of 21 30 November 2009 at 12:07am | IP Logged | |||||
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I also prefer the archaic versions, in Swedish and English alike.
To my mind things like the Lord's prayer and other traditional and religious texts, apart from whatever religious significance they may have, and apart from whether you are a practicing christian or not, are also part of a cultural heritage that is being handed down from one generation to the next. In this sense the language being archaic just helps transfer a little more of the flavor from those bygone days. I don't think a separate modern version for young children is necessarily a good idea. A basic awareness and familiarity with archaic forms of the language is an important part of the cultural and linguistic baggage of the native speaker. A good helping of old tradition served in this way will just do them good by contributing to their cultural identity and help anchor it in a historical context. At such a tender and impressionable age they will pick up the archaic expressions easily enough anyway, provided they are explained to them. I agree that just having them parrot the old texts with no explanation is a mistake. Edited by Hencke on 30 November 2009 at 12:12am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| JW Hexaglot Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/egw Joined 6122 days ago 1802 posts - 2011 votes 22 sounds Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Ancient Greek, French, Biblical Hebrew Studies: Luxembourgish, Dutch, Greek, Italian | Message 14 of 21 30 November 2009 at 2:44am | IP Logged | |||||
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Here is my own hyper-literal annotated translation from the original Koine Greek. I think it captures more of the original force of the Koine. Many of the various translations are so wimpy, the original is incredibly powerful. full of imperatives:
Father of us the one in the heavens Be set apart (imperative) (hallowed, consecrated) the name of you Come (imperative) the kingdom of you Happen (imperative) the will of you as in heaven also upon earth the bread of us the coming day give (imperative) to us this day and forgive (imperative) to us the debts of us as also we ourselves forgive the debtors of us and not lead us ourselves into into (repeated for emphasis) temptation (trial) but deliver (imperative) (rescue) us from the evil.
It's a manuscript issue. Not all the ancient Koine Greek manuscripts contain that last part. Thus, depending on which manuscripts were favored by the translators, it variously includes or excludes it. Here is a more complete (and very technical) explanation if you are interested: http://www.purewords.org/kjb1611/html/matt6_13.htm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Recht Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5801 days ago 241 posts - 270 votes Speaks: English*, GermanB1 | Message 15 of 21 05 December 2009 at 5:27am | IP Logged | |||||
ughh.... Why must they do this?! Why not just type out the Our Father in text message form? I'm also a religious traditionalist, I prefer the lofty and ancient to the vernacular and vulgar. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| JW Hexaglot Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/egw Joined 6122 days ago 1802 posts - 2011 votes 22 sounds Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Ancient Greek, French, Biblical Hebrew Studies: Luxembourgish, Dutch, Greek, Italian | Message 16 of 21 08 December 2009 at 11:28pm | IP Logged | |||||
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For the Germanists out there, here is the Lord's Prayer in various German dialects:
Hochdeutsch: Vater Unser im Himmel, Geheiligt werde Dein Name, Dein Reich komme. Dein Wille geschehe, Wie im Himmel, so auf Erden. Unser tägliches Brot gib uns heute, Und vergib uns unsere Schuld, Wie auch wir vergeben unseren Schuldigern. Und führe uns nicht in Versuchung, Sondern erlöse uns von dem Bösen. Denn Dein ist das Reich und die Kraft und die Herrlichkeit, in Ewigkeit. Amen. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Hunsrück-Deutsch (gesprochen von Auswanderern nach Brasilien) Vata unsa, de du bischt im Himmel geheilicht wet dei Nome dei Reich kommt dei Wille geschet wi im Himmel och so uf de Ead. Unsa tächlich Brot geb uns heit un vageb uns unsa Schult so wi mea vagewe unsa Schuliche un fia uns net in Vasuchung awa erles uns vom dem Üwel weil dea is das Reich un di Kraft un di Helichket in Ewichket. Amen. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Hessisch: Babba Unser Babba Unser, derde bist im Himmel, Geheilischt sei dei Namme, Dei Reisch kimme, Dei Will gescheh, Wie im Himmel, so uff Erde. Unser däglisch Brott geb uns heit, Un vergebb uns unsre Schulde, Wie aach mir vergebbe unsern Schuldners, Un fiehr uns net in Versuuchung, sonnern erlees uns vonnem Übbel, Denn Dei is des Reisch un de Krafft un de Herrlischkaat, in Ewwischkaat. Amme. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Bayrisch (Lautschrift) Insa vådar im himö, ghàiligt soi werdn dài' nåm. Dài' ràich soi kema, dài' wuin soi gschegn, wia-r-im himö, aso àf dar eadn. Gib ins hàind insa täglis broud, und vargib ins insar schuid, wia-r-à mia dene vagebm, dé an ins schuidig wordn sàn. Und fiar ins nét in d vasuachung, sundan darles ins vom ibö. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Berndütsch (Szweizerdeutscher) Tüet drum eso bätte: Üse Vatter im Himel! Mach, dass dy Name heilig ghalte wird, Mach, dass dys Rych zuen is chunt. La hie uf Ärde dy Wille gscheh, win er im Himel gscheht. Gib is hütt üses Brot für morn. Und erlan is üsi Schuld; mir wei sen o üsne Schuldner erla. Stell is nid uf d Prob; aber bhüet is vor em Böse. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Letzeburgisch (Luxemburg) Gebied vun eiser Här Eise Papp am Himmel, däin Numm sief gehellégt. Däi Räich soll kommen, däi Wëll soll geschéien wéi am Himmel sou op der Äerd. Gëf äis haut eist deeglecht Brout, verzei äis eis Schold, wéi mir och dene verzeien, déi an eiser Schold sin. Féier äis nët an d'Versuchung, mä maach äis fräi vum Béisen. Amen. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Pälzisch (Pfalz) Unser Vadder im Himmel Doin Name soll heilisch soi; Doi Känischsherrschaft soll kumme; Doin Wille soll gschehe uf de Erd genauso wie im Himmel. Geb uns heit das Brot, was mer de Daach brauche, un vergeb uns unser Schuld genauso wie mir denne vergewwe, wo an uns schuldisch worre sin. Un fiehr uns net in Versuchung, rett uns awwer vum Beese. Dir gheert jo die Herrschaft un die Kraft un die Herrlischkeit bis in alli Ewischkeit. Amen. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Pladdütsch (Plattdeutsch) Dat Vaderunser Vun nu af an schüllt ji sodenni beden: Unse Vader in' Himmel ! Laat hilligt warrn dienen Namen. Laat kamen dien Riek. Laat warrn dienen Willen so as in'n Himmel, so ok op de Eerd. Uns' dääglich Brood giff uns vundaag. Un vergiff uns unse Schuld, as wi di vergeben hebbt, de an uns schüllig sünd. Un laat uns nich versöcht warrn. Mak uns frie vun dat Böse. Denn dien is dat Riek un de Kraft un de Herrlichkeit in Ewigkeit. Amen. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Münsterländisch (Münsterländer Platt) Usse Vader in'n Himmel. Mogg doch dienen Namen ümmers hillig brukt wär'n. Dien Riek laot to us kuemmen. Dienen Willen sall hier up de Äer so daon wär'n, äs bi die in'n Himmel. Watt wi daogsüöwer an Braut brukt, giw us datt auk vandagg. Vergiw us, watt wi Leig's daon häbbt! Wi willt auk de nich watt naodriägen, well us watt andaorn häbbt! Laot an us Schlecht's nich herankuemmen. Niemm von us wegg, watt nich guett is. Denn dien is dat Riek un de Kraft un de Herrlichkeit in Ewigkeit. Amen. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- OSTFÄLISCH PLATTDUITSCH (Ostwestfalen-Lippe) Darümme söllt jai söo behen: Vader iuse in'n Himmel. Eheiligt were dain Name. Dain Raik kume. Dain Wille gescheihe as in'n Himmel söo auk up Eern. Iuse däägliche Braud giff ösch huite. Un vergiff ösch iuse Schuld, as auk wai vergievet iusen Schülligern. Un führe ösch nich in Versoikunge, sondern erlöise ösch von'n Böisen. Denn dain is et Raik un de Kraft un de Herrlichkeit in Ewigkeit. Amen. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Schwäbisch Vatr unsr im Himml g'heiligt sei dain Nama, dai Reich komme, dai Willa g'schehe wia im Himml, so au uf Aerda, Unsr däglichs Brod gib eis heit und vrgib eis eisere Schulda wia au mir vrgeabat eisre Schuldigr und fiahr eis it in Vrsuchung sondrn erles eis vom Besa Denn s'dai isch s'Reich, d'Kraft und d'Harlichkait in Ewigkait. Amen. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Weanerisch (Wien, Österreich) Foda fo uns ole, oom in Hime, auf di loss ma nix kuman, so wia s da s du fuaschdösd, soetaz hoed boed wean; wos d wüsd, soe gschäng, bei uns herunt auf da Wöd grod a so wia bei dia oom in Hime. Schau bitschee drauf, das ma jedn Dog wos zan Hawan griang, und druk a Aug zua, waum ma a Greane zaumdraad haum, grod a so wia mia nimma fo den redn woen, wos uns d aundan audau haum. Und los uns ned eifoan mid iagnd ana Linkn, schoff liawa ole Linkn oo, waun s gäd. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Wittlicher Platt (Wittlich, Rheinland Pfalz) Vatta owen em himel dain nomen soll hailsich sain dai raich soll kommen daine wellen sai gedon em himel wie hai op da welt. Gäff es hait os brut fir morjen un los es no os schold genau so wie mir se dänen noloßen di os ebbes schellisch sain un bräng es net en vasochung renn awa dn daiwel hal es vom laif. Amen. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- 5 persons have voted this message useful |
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