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Christkind, Santa, Дед Мороз | ||
Tags: Traditions | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Cultural Experiences in Foreign Languages | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| pookiebear79 Groupie United States Joined 6030 days ago 76 posts - 142 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Swedish, Italian | Message 17 of 22 17 December 2009 at 1:10pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Really trying not to go there with that last sentence, which is just screaming "look at me, I want to push people's buttons every chance I get!" :( Suffice to say, it's ridiculous to imply that ANY one religion holds the monopoly on "treating each other humanely." There are humane people of all faiths. Just as there are people who are and have been inhumane in the name of their religions. And it may even surprise you to know, there are even people of no religion at all who still manage to treat their fellow beings with kindness simply because it's the right thing to do. And people that are just mean for the sake of it, which has nothing to do with their religion or lack of one. So, other than to have a laugh at athiests or assert the supremacy of (presumably) your chosen religion, I don't see what the point was or what it had to do with the OT. I was glad to see this thread was reopened because I only saw it after it was locked before and am genuinely interested in learning about different countries' various holiday traditions/figures such as Sinterklaas, Yule goats,(? That was a new one for me,) Father Christmas, St. Lucia Day or whatever else may happen to fall around this same time. (But going from one topic guaranteed to be insulting (political mudslinging) to the other thing guaranteed to do so (marking snarky religious comments based only on one's own narrow view/prejudices) isn't going to help the discussion in a productive manner, IMO.) In answer to the earlier comment brashly assuming Christians don't have Christmas trees, I can personally attest that I grew up around a ton of people, including a large extended family and friends, which were split pretty evenly between Lutherans, some EXTREMELY religious Catholics and a few other Christians, and all had Christmas trees and it was all very much part of their holiday traditions. I know there are some very very religious people who in recent years have become offended at the idea of trees, but that's hardly enough 'evidence' to state "Christians don't have Christmas trees." (If they don't, who does? People from other religions or decidedly no religion, who do not even celebrate christmas??) Now then, back to the original, interesting (and more civil) topic of different countries' traditions, I have a question or two. How many peoples' countries cultural traditions includes putting up/out a stocking/sock/shoe for (insert name of traditional gift giving figure)to fill ? When I was a child, we put up a stocking and got tangerines (I don't know why, my mother just insisted it was tradition) and chocolate and a few small items like toothbrushes and socks, or little knickknacks. (But the common theme was that it was practical items, food, or makeup, not "frivolous" items like toys.) I'm curious about something else. I remember reading about Sinterklaas putting gifts and poems in the childrens' shoes (if I remember correctly.) I really admire this holiday because it's separated from the religious holiday of Christmas, so people get to enjoy the fun and the time spent with family/exchanging of gifts(if they so choose), and the religious can celebrate their holiday separately without becoming offended that others are spoiling its "true meaning." To me, having the two separate days like that is brilliant, and I'm also curious to know if this happens elsewhere (the gift giving on a different day from Christmas,) when little hamsters or other jolly furry friends (or maybe not so jolly...and I just made up the hamster part because they're cute) or white bearded men or elves or jultomten or simply the parents or whomever else delivers the gifts? I think it's unfortunate that in the US this is done on Christmas because it leads to so much sour grapes, bickering, not to mention excluding people who don't happen to celebrate the religious holiday of christmas. So do other countries (besides the Netherlands)celebrate a separate (i.e on different days) "gift giving" and religious holiday? In my own family, we now have a blend of religions, non religions, and levels of religiousness, so it's not the event it was as a child when my mother did it her way and other members had not yet joined the family. We get together and still exchange a couple of gifts, but most of the traditional stuff is just in my brother's household because he has kids (So the stockings, the trees, etc.) We still celebrate it on Christmas (or Christmas Eve) even though it's not everyone's religious belief/holiday, because it's the easiest time for everyone and it's mostly about the kids and the whole family getting together and eating a meal together (mixed carnivores and non meat eaters, drinkers and non drinkers, etc. so more "fun" to be had there) and the longest lasting holiday tradition of all (any holiday where the family gets together, actually), which is that at some point there will be a big, nasty fight which always ends in tears (and when my brother's wife was still around, drunken fights requiring police intervention!) Some holiday traditions should clearly NOT be passed on to the children. Which reminds me, much as people might try to insist otherwise, there's more than one major religion with December holiday traditions, so I'd like to wish a very Happy Chanukah to whom it may concern. :) 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5521 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 18 of 22 17 December 2009 at 1:48pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
The point was rather that in Christian countries, the reason we stopped killing each other is largely our Christianity. There have been similar cases in other regions with other religions, but I thought we were talking about Christian countries.
And what someone sees as "the right thing to do" is part of their religion. There is no objective good outside of faith. What would that even mean?
I don't know if it was me you misunderstood here, but my point was at least that Christmas trees are not a way to remember the birth of Christ, it is an old Germanic or Norse tradition that has nothing to do with "desert gods". It just so happens that we have kept this ritual alive, and when exported to America and then to other places, its original significance was lost. Evenso, I don't think many people imagine that the tree somehow celebrates Christ, it's just something we do around the time of Christmas. It is true, by the way, that many non-Christians have Christmas trees. So I think it is fair to say that this particular tradition has disentangled itself from its temporary confusion with Christianity.
Now I don't know if this is a joke, but I'll pretend you're serious. How do you reckon that reliving the acts of a most decidedly Christian saint, who additionally stood as inspiration for Santa Claus, is "separated from the religious holiday of Christmas"? And moreover, why would you want to celebrate Christmas without celbrating Christmas? Just because it's fun?
This is truly political correctness gone mad. You wish that the Christian feast of Christmas were devoid of religious meaning, so as to avoid "excluding people who don't happen to celebrate the religious holiday of christmas"? Do you also yearn for a non-islamic Ramadan? Or a more inclusive Purim? What's the point of that? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| jintro Diglot Newbie Belgium Joined 5872 days ago 16 posts - 32 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English Studies: German, French | Message 19 of 22 17 December 2009 at 3:14pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
In Belgium they also celebrate Sinterklaas (Saint Klaus? sounds familiar :)), But in some regions of Flanders (Dutch-speaking Belgium) it is not Sinterklaas who brings the gifts but Sint-Maarten (Saint Martin of Tours), on November 11. While in essence they are christian figures, especially Sinterklaas is largely adopted by non-Christian immigrant communities. Staying well away from the rest of this thread 'tough. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
 newyorkeric Diglot Moderator Singapore Joined 6379 days ago 1598 posts - 2174 votes Speaks: English*, Italian Studies: Mandarin, Malay Personal Language Map | Message 20 of 22 17 December 2009 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Keep it civil and on-topic please or this thread will be reclosed. This isn't the place to discuss political correctness, your beliefs about Christianity (good or bad), etc.
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| Juan M. Senior Member Colombia Joined 5899 days ago 460 posts - 597 votes | Message 21 of 22 17 December 2009 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Actually, Europeans killed themselves all the way up until they gave up their original religion. I'm not implying causation though.
This is true. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| newyorkeric Diglot Moderator Singapore Joined 6379 days ago 1598 posts - 2174 votes Speaks: English*, Italian Studies: Mandarin, Malay Personal Language Map | Message 22 of 22 17 December 2009 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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And now the thread is reclosed. Amazing.
1 person has voted this message useful |
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