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How I got Germans to speak German to me | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Immersion, Schools & Certificates |  | |
| tracker465 Senior Member United States Joined 5196 days ago 355 posts - 496 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 17 of 32 22 July 2010 at 5:30am | IP Logged | ||
No offense, but I really do not think that this has everything to do with the matter. I studied German for quite some time before living in Germany, and when I came back, the new German professor at my university, someone whom I never met until after I went to Germany, always told me that my German was very good. Furthermore, one of my German professors has experienced this problem different times, and he is perfectly fluent in German. I think you may be just lucky on the matter, perhaps it is different in Bavaria. My experiences stem mainly from the Frankfurt region and sometimes in the north. I still hold firm on my thoughts though, and I doubt that I will change them. If I go to a foreign country and speak the language fairly well, then unless I am trying to make a peace treaty or something, it seems a bit crappy to suggest that one should speak English, even if the other person does speak better English than you do language X. There are exceptions for me, such as if I wanted to talk with Italian people about making wine (which I do) but I do not know the technical terms for winemaking in Italian. Then it is understandable that we might speak in English. Yet if we are talking about normal, non specialized fields, or if I am ordering food at a restaurant, then to speak in English when being just as capable in the other language is something that is a bit insulting, and not something that I usually put up with. If I am just a beginner of a language, then I'll just keep my mouth closed and won't try speaking with natives. Struggling to pronounce a few phrases to attempt to order a beer is not something I relish much. But this is a totally different thing then having someone speak only in English, when the other person is perfectly capable in answering in their language, and is visiting their country. Usually when people hasseled me about it in Germany, I would tell them I was from Denmark or South Africa, as I have friends which taught me some of each language. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| astein Pentaglot Groupie Germany Joined 5112 days ago 80 posts - 134 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian, French, Mandarin Studies: Russian, Dutch | Message 18 of 32 22 July 2010 at 8:56am | IP Logged | ||
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Yeah, I am not saying that you can't still try to speak German, I'm just asking you to look at it from their perspective. They have had to spend years and years learning English, listening to American music, watching American movies. Firstly, they might want a chance to practice this language. Wouldn't you make every effort to practice German if you met a native German speaker in America? The draw to speak English is only exacerbated when it is obvious that their command of English is superior to the foreigner's command of German.
Quite simply, I wouldn't recommend beginning a relationship with somebody by lying. Just explain that you are trying to improve your German, and that is hard to do so when speaking English. If your German is really good enough, and they are patient people, they will most often acquiesce. Who knows, you might end up becoming really good friends with these people, and it would be awkward, to say the least, to have to explain that you lied to them right from the beginning. Also, as was already mentioned, the American accent is almost always pretty obvious. It is only if you intentionally have really off-the-wall pronunciation or are good enough that you are in that zone just before sounding German that they won't be able to tell from intonation and sound alone. Also, they probably have a decent idea of how Danish and Afrikaans accents sound. I already had pretty good pronunciation when I arrived, as accents and voices are sort of my hobby, and even then, it has taken two months to get to the point where I am no longer obviously American from the first meeting. Now, I am usually taken for Dutch or Belgian, but that is with concentrated effort on minute details. Imagine the opposite situation. Do you really think that foreigners in America would be able to pull that trick on you? It's generally quite simple to determine from whereabouts someone is coming, especially with Americans. Also, these phrases that you know, can you speak them with the casual attitude and rhythm of a native? Even if they don't understand what you are saying, it isn't that hard to tell if someone can actually speak a language, certainly when the language in question is so similar to German. If you are caught in such a lie, it simply makes you look foolish and dishonest, but that is just my opinion... 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Tally Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Israel Joined 5452 days ago 135 posts - 176 votes Speaks: English*, Modern Hebrew* Studies: French | Message 19 of 32 22 July 2010 at 2:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think the reason that sometimes people are reluctant to speak to you in your target
language in general is that they are impatient and feel that the conversation flows better in English. That's why sometimes, even if you speak your target language really well, people will automatically switch to English out of habit, because they are used to people speaking that language not so good. Maybe Germanic language are harder and because of that people are more used to just speaking in the easier way? those countries get lots of tourists too. Just a guess... Edited by Tally on 22 July 2010 at 2:57pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tracker465 Senior Member United States Joined 5196 days ago 355 posts - 496 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 20 of 32 22 July 2010 at 3:19pm | IP Logged | ||
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@astein:
I won't quote your whole block of text, but you make a few points on which I feel to comment. I have never told anyone of "significance" that I was not from America when I was living in Germany. My friends, professors, etc were all well informed. Then again, I usually did not have any problems with these people not being willing to speak German with me. The people with whom I sometimes ran into problems, were the people working in shops, and the like. I agree that I don't find lying to be the best policy, but I am also not going to speak butchered English with Germans and German immigrants while in Germany, just because I am a native English speaker. When I am in America and someone wants to practice English with me, I feel more than happy to help them, since they are in the USA where English is primarily spoken, despite the fact that there is not an official language here. Regarding accents, my native English accent is a bit strange, and my German accent also. At a train station a German man asked if I was from Poland, and other German people I have met, friends and acquaintences, have told me that my German accent is not German, though it is does not sound American either. Whether a non-native speaker knows what a typical Afrikaans or Danish accent is like, some may and some may not, but it could easily be thought that one was raised in South Africa for awhile, moved to Aruba or some place, and acquired a different sort of accent in the process. As said before, I understand that these people also took the time to learn English, but the bottom line for me is this, and it just reinforces the article I posted about Pennslyvania schools dropping German and French majors. If one cannot speak his or her target language in the country where it is spoken, then there really seems to be little to no reason to learn said language anymore, for any reason. With that said, I am done with this topic, as I think many of the points can be summed up in the following manner: Germans take the time to learn English, just as many other people learn English. Some people believe that skill level determines the chances of whether a German speaker will switch to English, though this has happened to even fluent non-native professors, so it seems not to be only a matter of competance. This may be out of habit or maybe not. Some people feign the ignorance of English so that they can continue speaking in German, but their accents may give them away. Edited by tracker465 on 22 July 2010 at 3:35pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| astein Pentaglot Groupie Germany Joined 5112 days ago 80 posts - 134 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian, French, Mandarin Studies: Russian, Dutch | Message 21 of 32 22 July 2010 at 3:41pm | IP Logged | ||
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Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to imply anything about anyone. I was just trying to share that, in my experiences, things haven't worked in such a way as to require anything beyond a simple explanation of my language goals.
I hope my comments weren't taken in the wrong way, but I think a lot of people end up making double standards when they complain about this issue (I'm not referring to anyone in particular). It's a frustrating experience, but it is something that is either to be overcome or endured. I firmly believe that, if you can demonstrate significantly superior skills in the foreign language in question (when compared to the native speaker's command of English, which is often not nearly as firm as Europeans would have Americans believe, Scandinavia and Netherlands excluded), then there will be no real need to face the issue. Of course, there must certainly be exceptions for especially arrogant natives, those really interested in learning English, and the highly educated, who probably speak better English than the majority of native speakers. My real pet-peeve has actually been Germans trying to correct English speakers for English-related issues. I don't mean grammatical mistakes in particular, because many native English speakers are rather careless with grammar, and those comments might be justified. I am referring mainly to the German insistance that their use of our words idiomatic expressions is the proper one, like Public Viewing and Cowboy. I don't go around correcting every German speaker who says "wegen dem Regen" or "...weil SUBJECT + VERB + REST OF SENTENCE", because I know that would sound foolish coming from a non-native speaker. I understand that we may make mistakes, but really...that is like walking up to a World Cup player and telling him that he should have made the goal attempt differently, and that you are qualified to say so because you have watched a great many football matches. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tracker465 Senior Member United States Joined 5196 days ago 355 posts - 496 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 22 of 32 22 July 2010 at 5:01pm | IP Logged | ||
I think there are just so many varying factors to add into any situation, that it really is hard to make a conclusion that is not terribly generalized. As mentioned earlier, my experiences with natives wanting to speak English with me normally occured in shops and food places during my travels, so perhaps these people are just so used to "phrasebook Americans" and the like, that they figure there is no point in answering in German. I agree that there does seem to be some sort of double standard with the language learning, but there is one major point that many people seem to forget about. I used to work in a tour shop, and when I spoke German with the German tourists, they were always surprised that I spoke German, and thus did not seem to mind that I was "practicing" with them. Sure there are many non-native German speakers in America, but let's face it, I believe that I am more surprised when I meet a German that does not speak English than a German who meets an American who does not speak German. Just saying. I think that helps lead to the double standard. Since Europeans generally speak English fairly well, and have more opportunities to speak English than Americans do German/Italian/Dutch/etc, then when an American learner does run into someone who speaks a foreign language, on his or her own turf, it sometimes becomes one big, frenzied learning experience. I try to be cognisant of this though, as I know how annoying it can be when the tables are reversed. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Zeitgeist21 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5489 days ago 156 posts - 192 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, French | Message 23 of 32 22 July 2010 at 11:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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Everyone I meet seem to think I'm Dutch when I speak German so I don't have this problem anymore! It first happened when I was having a conversation with this lady I'd bought a Wurst from. As she gave it to me, she smiled while giving me a knowing look and said "You're from the Netherlands, aren't you?" :D
Edited by WillH on 23 July 2010 at 12:02am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Romanist Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5126 days ago 261 posts - 366 votes Studies: Italian | Message 24 of 32 23 July 2010 at 2:33am | IP Logged | ||
Astein, I'd agree that no foreigner whose German is genuinely below par can reasonably complain if a German person wants to communicate in English. After all, it would just be dumb to have needless misunderstandings. But if you think it is only people with a poorer level of German who tend to have this experience, then either you have not (yet) spent as many months and years in German speaking countries as some of us have, or you have so far been lucky! I myself don't live in Germany anymore, but I'm acquainted with people who get this stuff all of the time. For example, I know an academic (a German literature specialist who has has spent years doing research in Germany and Austria) who apparently still gets people in shops, bars, etc answering her back in English! Just put yourself in her position: if you had just given a lecture and conducted a Q&A session (all in German language) at a university, wouldn't you feel kind of snubbed if some fool of a waiter or shop assistant insisted in forcing his/her broken English right down your throat? (Now let's be absolutely clear, I'm not referring here to folks who are genuinely trying to be helpful, but rather to those people who are openly arrogant and disrespectful towards foreigners who are obviously willing and able to speak their language at C1 or C2 level.) Okay, rant over! :-D Edited by Romanist on 23 July 2010 at 1:59pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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