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Interesting / rare grammar experiences | ||
Tags: Grammar | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| GrandeBretagne Diglot Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5247 days ago 10 posts - 13 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchC1 Studies: Spanish, German | Message 1 of 21 31 October 2011 at 1:03am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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To me, grammatical devices are the most interesting aspect of learning a new language. In particular, I'm always eager to learn modal verbs, interrogatives, how languages express obligation (to have to), "should" and how a question is signalled. Devices include rearranging word order (I may -> May I), usage of special verbs (falloir), amongst others. Could you give any examples of interesting grammar that you have come across? Are there any unique devices you have encountered? I have experience of European languages so I'd be especially interested to hear responses from those who have learnt languages from other language families, but you are welcome to share any grammar that you find interesting!
Thank you. Edited by GrandeBretagne on 31 October 2011 at 1:04am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| PaulLambeth Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5373 days ago 244 posts - 315 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Icelandic, Hindi, Irish | Message 2 of 21 31 October 2011 at 1:57am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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The most interesting so far for me has probably been an important element of Navajo word order, where the perceived fastest moving object is said first in a sentence (if I remember correctly), making it essential that the object and subject are tagged as such. I assumed this was because they are still culturally closer to a hunter-gatherer people, and so saying the most dangerous (or, fastest-moving) thing first in a sentence was potentially life-saving. I didn't spend more than an afternoon looking at Navajo, but that's what stuck in my mind. I've found the same thing in another language since, although I can't remember which one.
Another is when I found out that some (probably lots of) languages do not or did not until recently have a base-10 (10 fingers) counting system. The Telefol language of Papua New Guinea uses a base-27 counting system, and after learning how that makes sense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telefol_language#Counting_syst em) I will use that example many times in conversation in the future, I'm sure. Greenlandic also used to use only base-6, and adopted Danish numbers to fill in the rest. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| GrandeBretagne Diglot Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5247 days ago 10 posts - 13 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchC1 Studies: Spanish, German | Message 3 of 21 31 October 2011 at 2:10am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Fantastic, thanks for sharing. I love the Navajo one, very interesting. Your Greenlandic example reminded me of handling large numbers in Japanese when I did a 2 month basic course, with larger numbers being subdivided into 10,000 rather than 1,000. For example, ten million (10,000,000) would be is-sen man (1000,0000) i.e. one thousand ten thousands. Edit: Which also reminds me of Japanese counter words, I found it fascinating when I came across these. Edited by GrandeBretagne on 31 October 2011 at 2:19am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| PaulLambeth Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5373 days ago 244 posts - 315 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Icelandic, Hindi, Irish | Message 4 of 21 31 October 2011 at 2:44am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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That's fantastically complex, GrandeBretagne. I can't imagine if English maintained a different specific counting noun for cannons or telephone calls. Off-topic, but what's written beneath the expanded list caught my eye and made me giggle:
"*Japanese Buddhist monks were not allowed to eat any meat other than birds, but liked rabbit meat so much they came up with the contrived "explanation" that rabbits are actually birds, and that their ears are unusable wings. The rationale was that while moving, rabbits only touched the ground with two feet at a time. Nowadays, hiki is the usual counter for rabbits." Looking forward to seeing more of these. Grammar's probably the top thing I find interesting about languages too, and I love it as long as it can be somewhat explained. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| strikingstar Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 5173 days ago 292 posts - 444 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin*, Cantonese, Swahili Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written) | Message 5 of 21 31 October 2011 at 3:19am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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But it's present in English too.
A school of fish. A gaggle of geese. A flock of birds. A pride of lions. A cabal of thieves etc. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4889 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 6 of 21 31 October 2011 at 3:28am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I learned Chuukese, a Micronesian language, in the Peace Corps. It's an oral language,
and I never really understood all the grammar rules (even though I can speak it), but there are a few things that were unique: - We had the counting categories, like the Japanese. So e was "one", and efoch was one skinny tubular thing, eche one flat thing, eman one living thing, and efeu one round thing. There were a few other common ones, and then hundreds of obscure ones. There were separate ways to count bunches of bananas, reef fish, fishing canoes, unripe breadfruit, and so on and so on, but we almost never used the obscure ones. I think those were reserved for trades or the "high" language. (side to Strikingstar: it's not really close to anything I know of in English. The actual words for one, two, three, etc. would change depending on what you were counting) - So each branch of knowledge (medicine, navigation, acupuncture, love, magic, black magic, et al.) also had it's own terms and ways of counting and grammar rules. Most of these you could only learn if you were the right lineage. Itang, the language for magic, was the most infamous. - There were strong / obscene words we'd only use among the guys, but that don't translate at all into English. For instance, there was a very nice word for "to eat" (that I can't remember), and there was mwenge which was an every day word, and there was cha which was nasty and rough ... but still only means "to eat" in English. - I never quite grasped directional suffixes. Some were easy: tolong was to enter, totis, to climb, totiew to fall or go down, and tou to exit. Easy if you're talking about a house, that is/ But we'd use similar words for walking and sailing, and it didn't match up to east/west, or any standard direction. Sometimes we would sailong (sail towards the center) and sometimes saeu , satiew, or satis; but hell if I ever knew what the reference point was to determine which one to use. It seemed to shift. - The construction I miss the most was for inclusive and exclusive first person plurals. There was a "we" that included the person being addressed (we are going fishing ... so get your gear), and a "we" that excluded them (we are going fishing ... what are you doing?). It's very useful once you get the hang of it. I feel its absence. Edited by kanewai on 31 October 2011 at 3:34am 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| PaulLambeth Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5373 days ago 244 posts - 315 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Icelandic, Hindi, Irish | Message 7 of 21 31 October 2011 at 3:38am | IP Logged | ||||||||
True, but the main ones used nowadays appear to be animals. For example, I've never heard 'cabal of thieves', but I know all the others. Apparently one lady invented a lot of those group nouns (can't remember my source for that).
That's also used in Tok Pisin. mipela = we (exclusive) mitupela = I and one other (exclusive) - first person dual, if you like yumi = we (inclusive) yumitripela = we (inclusive) and a third person Those definitions are what I've understood from a workbook. I see no reason why yumipela (inclusive, plural) couldn't be used on top of that.
A lot of languages have that kind of distinction. To gorge on, to scoff, to wolf down, are all ruder ways of talking about eating (although they all kind of imply rudeness due to haste). Icelandic has að borða (polite, literally 'to table') and að eta (impolite), which is usually reserved for animals but is sometimes used by teenagers to mean eat. I don't know if there's a haste nuance like there is in English. Edited by PaulLambeth on 31 October 2011 at 3:47am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| GrandeBretagne Diglot Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5247 days ago 10 posts - 13 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchC1 Studies: Spanish, German | Message 8 of 21 31 October 2011 at 3:40am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Wow. What a priceless life experience that must have been, to live with and learn such a language and people. Did you acquire all this yourself just by living with them? Is the language already well documented? Thanks for the post. Edited by GrandeBretagne on 31 October 2011 at 3:50am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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