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German tense in subordinate clauses | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5788 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 1 of 12 26 June 2014 at 2:42am | IP Logged | |||||
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German textbooks spend an inordinate amount of time explaining about the subjunctive in
indirect discourse and indirect questions seemingly oblivious to the fact that there are other kinds of subordinate clauses that don't fall into these categories. Naturally I assumed that in these cases the choice of tense/mood in German must follow the English pattern, after all, surely a good textbook or grammar would mention it if it didn't, right? 
Well more and more I'm convinced from watching TV and reading that this isn't true and I find it an annoying omission on the part of textbooks (who clearly all just copy some standard format) that I can't actually find an answer to what tense/mood actually is used in these cases.The kind of clauses I have in mind are things like: I was afraid (that) you'd say that I'm so glad that you've come I didn't know (that) you were here I didn't know you (that) you were there (last night) Etc None of this is reported speech/indirect discourse or indirect questions, so presumably the subjunctive doesn't apply. I have the strong impression that German uses the present tense a lot in these clauses where English would require the use of "would", saying literally "I was afraid that you say that" (Ich habe befürchtet, dass du das sagst) and "I didn't know that you are here", etc. Can someone please explain the rules here? Thanks in advance. Edited by Random review on 26 June 2014 at 3:00am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5788 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 2 of 12 26 June 2014 at 2:51am | IP Logged | |||||
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My attempt at my 4 sentences (please correct):
Ich habe befürchtet, dass du das sagst Es freut mich, dass du gekommen bist (same as English) Ich wusste nicht, dass du hier bist. Ich wusste nicht, dass du da warst (same as English) In other words, my impression is that German (apart from where it uses the subjunctive in reported speech, if-clauses and indirect questions etc) chooses the tense of the verb in the subordinate clause using the same logic as it (and English!) use in main clauses: if it is present; use the present; if it is past, use the past (whereas English has a whole complicated "sequence of tense" thing going on in subordinate clauses. Is that an accurate description? Edited by Random review on 26 June 2014 at 2:57am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5325 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 3 of 12 26 June 2014 at 6:52am | IP Logged | |||||
Ich habe befürchtet, dass du das sagst Ich habe befürchtet, dass du das sagen würdest. Es freut mich, dass du gekommen bist (same as English) OK Ich wusste nicht, dass du hier bist. OK Ich wusste nicht, dass du da warst (same as English) OK 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5788 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 4 of 12 29 June 2014 at 1:10am | IP Logged | |||||
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I appreciate the feedback, Doitsujin; but can anyone please explain the rule here?
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5771 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 5 of 12 29 June 2014 at 3:07am | IP Logged | |||||
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I think rather than there being a general rule, the verb in the main clause indicates which tenses make sense in the dependent clause.
For example, würde only makes sense with verbs of thinking or making assumptions about the world, or when using the vernacular version of reported speech. I'd actually use and accept "Ich habe befürchtet, dass du das sagst" - when, for example, the same person said the same kind of thing before but despite that I hoped they would somehow change their mind. I'd use the others more or less like Es hat mich gefreut, dass du gekommen bist. I was happy that you could come. Es freut mich, dass du gekommen bist. I am happy that you could come. Es freut mich, dass du kommst. I am happy that you'll come. (or come along) Ich wusste nicht, dass du hier/da bist. (hier, da to mean this place) Ich wusste nicht, dass du hier/da/dort warst. (da, dort to mean a different place) I'd usually use hier and present tense, and dort and past tense, but that is only because I'd probably talk to a person either about them being at the same place as me right now, or having been at a different place in the past. It is possible to use da, but ... it's a bit colloquial and so I'd expect some kind of modifier? Doitsujin seems to accept the sentence with 'da', but to me that means something like 'Maybe you noticed me, but I had no idea you were going to be there so (obviously) I didn't notice you.' Ich wusste nicht, dass du auch da/dort warst I didn't know you were there (at the same event/place as me) seems more natural to me. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5325 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 6 of 12 29 June 2014 at 7:16am | IP Logged | |||||
I'd always use "Ich habe befürchtet, dass du das sagen würdest." in formal German, regardless of the circumstances. "Ich habe befürchtet, dass du das sagst" is, of course, perfectly understandable.
That's exactly how I'd interpret this sentence. :-) 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5771 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 7 of 12 29 June 2014 at 8:47am | IP Logged | |||||
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I probably wouldn't use 'du' in formal German. When I use 'Sie' I also use würden!
Maybe you do mean the same thing, but maybe I didn't make myself clear. If the sentence is phrased with 'auch', I think it shows surprise, taking in new information. If it is phrased without 'auch' ... it sounds to me like the speaker feels they have to justify their not having known before. Apologetic, or even accusing the other person for not letting them know sooner. I think the English translation *can* express that nuance, giving the right intonation, but it can also express that you're simply reacting to new information. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5788 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 8 of 12 01 July 2014 at 2:57am | IP Logged | |||||
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OK, thanks, guys. That's all really helpful, I just wish there were a rule I could
learn. I noticed another example recently. The final lesson of the new Assimil German contains the following sentence: Im Mai letzten Jahres habe ich am Abend schnell noch Brot holen wollen, bevor die Geschäfte schließen. It's examples like that, where the verb in the main clause is in the past tense and the verb in the dependent clause is in the present tense, even though it refers to something in the past, that confuse me most. I'd really appreciate any further help. Thanks. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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