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Swedish pronunciation: sj | ||
Tags: Swedish | Pronunciation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Lugubert Heptaglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6872 days ago 186 posts - 235 votes  Speaks: Swedish*, Danish, Norwegian, EnglishC2, German, Dutch, French Studies: Mandarin, Hindi | Message 9 of 14 29 June 2014 at 4:53pm | IP Logged | ||
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If you Google "hooktop heng" (ɧ), there is some material on the Internet, for example on Wiktionary. That entry needs corrections: "Created by Geoffrey K. Pullum in 1986" is false. You find it in an IPA leaflet printed in 1967, and Prof. Pullum doesn't claim any credit in the Wiki quoted Phonetic symbol guide.
GKP says,
I don't agree with the velar part and would like to add some roundedness. It's not too far back from [c] in my mouth. Moreover, the leaflet and the book say that the sound is "one variety of Swedish tj, kj, etc." I can't imagine the ɧ realization of those two digraphs. I use it in skj-, stj-, sj-, sch-, some sk- (e.g. in skida 'ski' but not in skala 'peel'), -xky- and probably others. The -xky- might surprise you. There's a small village near Borlänge in Dalecarlia named Spraxkya. Edited by Lugubert on 29 June 2014 at 5:04pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6914 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 10 of 14 29 June 2014 at 11:45pm | IP Logged | ||
Most likely a mistake. While [ʃ]/[ɕ] (similar enough) can be used for all these digraphs (even if it would sound posh or Northern), [ɧ] can't. I've even heard non-natives say [ɧʉːv] for "tjuv"! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4295 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 11 of 14 30 June 2014 at 7:09am | IP Logged | ||
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In just one lesson that I did today, they had the words "kanske", "själv", and "skidor"
within 30 seconds of each other, and pronounced like this: kanske -> "kan-sheh" själv -> "hw'elv" skidor -> "hwi-dour" So it seems like a mix to me, with overlap between "sj" and "sk". I am unsure what kind of accent this is, unless it is some neutral speech since this is audio for learning. Notwithstanding this possibility, I am unsure how a non-native speaker should choose between the pronunciations. Although I would guess that if one switches between pronunciations on a regular basis, it might sound odd. Edited by 1e4e6 on 30 June 2014 at 7:15am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| eyðimörk Triglot Senior Member France goo.gl/aT4FY7 Joined 4104 days ago 490 posts - 1158 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French Studies: Breton, Italian | Message 12 of 14 30 June 2014 at 8:31am | IP Logged | ||
Was it the same or different speakers? In my Breton Assimil lessons you'll hear "zh" pronounced "z" and not at all in the same lesson, but by different speakers. I'm sure there are speakers who mix, especially if they've lived in different areas or if their pronunciation of certain words is influenced more by a particular person than their peers, etc., but I think most people pick one and stick with it unless they're modifying their speech for various reasons (like suddenly pronouncing things differently because there's an audience and the person perceives a different pronunciation to be more "correct"). As for overlap between sj- and sk-, the sj- sound actually has a myriad of different spellings beyond sj-, but they're all the same sound (and that sound doesn't usually switch around in daily speech): sj- sk- skj- stj- sch- sh- j- g- -ti- -ssi- 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4295 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 13 of 14 30 June 2014 at 8:43am | IP Logged | ||
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"kanske" was pronounced by one speaker and the "själv" and "skidor" by another. In the
"Övningar" section, however, the first speaker pronounces "skidor" as "hwi-dour", if my ears are not mistaken. But I never knew that this sound was so commonplace. I am accustomed to using the "sh" sound, but I practised the "hwh" pseudo-whistle type sound a bit and it became somewhat easier with repetition. Edited by 1e4e6 on 30 June 2014 at 8:51am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6914 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 14 of 14 30 June 2014 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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There are a couple of words which I always say with sh, eg. dusch (duscha etc.), lunch, tusch, show, gouache, kitsch, check, crescendo - maybe there's no coincidence that these are also loanwords. However, there are also loanwords where I'd use hw, e.g. generell, chef, chock, chans, and any -ion word.
And for those who take a short cut and use a general /sh/ for all consonants, be careful: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_%C3%B6ver_svenska_minimal a_par_mellan_sj-_och_tj-ljudet The left column can always be pronounced with [ɧ] (or [ʃ]) and the right can only be pronounced with [ʂ]. Confusing? Edited by jeff_lindqvist on 30 June 2014 at 12:41pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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