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Italian: Various advice needed | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| gejl1987 Newbie United Kingdom Joined 3661 days ago 2 posts - 2 votes Studies: Italian | Message 1 of 8 17 November 2014 at 1:35am | IP Logged | ||
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Hi Guys,
I'm trying to get to a working level of Italian that will allow me to start reading novels, etc. I'm not saying I want to read them with ease but well enough for me to read perhaps a page a day with a dictionary. I have a strange situation on my hands which is that I recall vocabulary pretty easily and once i've finished a chapter or lesson from a language book I complete the tasks and vocabulary to 100%. This really unsettles me. Just to clarify, this is not a a boast. It worries me. I think I read somewhere a couple of years ago that people who pick up vocabulary fast have a tendency to lose it fast too. Is this true? My regime is this: Living Italian, a grammar based course. (Small lessons that get to the point quickly) Take Off in Italian (A more recording based course) Hugo Italian in Three Months (Teaches you the fundamentals) After those three I was going to move on to: A practise book (Not sure which one yet. Would be great for recommendations) Hugo Advanced Italian (Follow on course) Perfect your Italian (Teach Yourself, one which actually seems worth the outlay) i'm aiming to study between 2-4 hours a day. Would any of you be able to give me even a broad time estimate to learn Italian well enough to be able to read a novel (slowly). George P.s I appreciate any responses 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4888 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes  Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 2 of 8 17 November 2014 at 4:37am | IP Logged | ||
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I'm finding that Italian novels are a lot more 'literary' and complex than most English and French novels; I've
been trying to learn to read with ease also, and it's taking more time than I expected. But you might be ready for some books in translation - these tend to be a lot easier than native language books. Harry Potter, Twilight, Percy Jackson, Agatha Christie, and The Hunger Games all get props on HTLAL, with Harry Potter being the gold standard for excellent translations. Otherwise, Assimil would be a great addition. I think it's strongest at getting people to a good reading level (while weaker at getting people to a good speaking level). My own progression has been: 1. Pimsleur + Michel Thomas - good for overall structure. You've probably past this level. 2. Assimil + Living Language (finished about 50% of each) 3. Harry Potter e l'ordine della fenice. 700 pages! But it wasn't super hard 4. Native language lit. This was hard and often frustrating. Current. Back to Assimil + Living Language. Now about 2/3 through each, and I already see a huge improvement in my reading ability. "learn fast and lose it fast" doesn't sound right to me. The key is: study steadily over time. There will be fast and slow periods. Just keep moving forward! And at 2-4 hours a day you should make huge strides in the coming months! Edited by kanewai on 17 November 2014 at 4:37am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Speakeasy Senior Member Canada Joined 4051 days ago 507 posts - 1098 votes Studies: German | Message 3 of 8 18 November 2014 at 1:01am | IP Logged | ||
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Hello George,
STUDY PLAN I do not wish to be critical, but it seems to me that your study plan is rather front-loaded with very basic material. I suggest that you choose ONE of your initial language programmes, work through it thoroughly, and then move on to more advanced material. While many people prefer the Hugo method, given your specific goals, I would recommend Hodder’s Living Italian. As you pointed out, it is quite concise, but it contains a surprising amount of material. I concur with all of kanewai’s recommendations and most particularly with Assimil Italian. I would add the following as follow-up material: FSI LANGUAGE COURSES I do not know whether you are already familiar with the FSI Language Courses website. My recommendations are: FSI Italian FAST I suggest that you consider integrating the FSI Italian FAST course into your study programme. While some of the FSI FAST courses are rather cursory, the Italian course is quite thorough. While the course objective is to teach the student the spoken language, like the Living Italian course, there is ample text. Note carefully that the FSI courses were meant to be studied in a classroom setting and therefore can seem a little challenging. However, assuming that you will have already covered either the Hugo Italian or Living Italian courses, and that you may have worked at least part-way through the Assimil Italian course, you should have no difficulties with the FSI Italian course. DLI Italian Headstart The DLI Headstart programmes were developed as self-study language courses for members of the U.S. Armed Forces and their families. While they are interesting, you’ll learn at least as much, if not a lot more, with either Hugo or Hodder, and most definitely much more with Assimil. So, I cannot really recommend it to you. FSI Italian Programmed Course This course is probably the fundamental reason why the programmed learning method was abandoned. Take a good idea, thoroughly misapply it, criticize the lack of results, discredit the idea and then abandon it. The authors of the FSI Programmed courses for Portuguese, Spanish, and German created small masterpieces. However, the Programmed Italian course would be a waste your valuable time. READING MATERIAL There is so much material available, that it is difficult to know where to start! However, here are some sources: Think Italian! This is a monthly magazine for those wishing to improve their skills in reading, listening, and speaking Italian. The monthly articles cover the language, customs, art, history, food, cultural, and geography of Italy. The level is, roughly speaking, intermediate. The contents, about 25 pages of PDF text and about 60 minutes of MP3 audio, are downloadable. If you decide to subscribe, remember to save your files as, once your subscription lapses, you will no longer have access to the past issues. Annual subscriptions are generally around 99$ US. Here’s the LINK: Think Italian. Read & Think Italian This book is a collection of articles drawn from the "Think Italian!" monthly magazine. You can purchase it with or without a CD. However, note very carefully that the CD contains only "selections" of audio that accompanies the printed articles in the magazine version. So, if your interest is reading only, then you might consider this book. However, if you want ear-training, then opt for the magazine. Here is the link to Amazon.CO.UK: Read & Think Italian. Easy Italian Reader The title says it all: Easy Italian Reader. Better Reading Italian Words fail me: Better Readiing Italian. Italian Graded Readers While there are several publishers of graded readers, I recommend the collection by La Spiga Modern Languages. They are small, slim, inexpensive pocket books, printed on newsprint: nothing fancy. Some, but not all, include audio CDs. The selection is quite large and it ranges from A1 through C2, which is something of a rarity. While some of the texts are original, mostly at the lower levels, the majority are simplified versions of literary classics from the 19th century. The upper level books are either excerpts from, or complete, originals. There are no translations. Parallel Readers Here is the link to the Amazon.CO.UK selection of Parallel Italian Text readers. Note carefully that these are invariably at the C1-C2 level. Buy now, read later! Free Stuff! Yes, there is such a thing as a "free lunch"; you simply have to know where to look. The following websites over free, downloadable texts, with or without audio, of literary classics from the 19th century. Again, note that these are at the C1-C2 level. LibrVox Loyal Books Enjoy your studies! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| gejl1987 Newbie United Kingdom Joined 3661 days ago 2 posts - 2 votes Studies: Italian | Message 4 of 8 18 November 2014 at 11:46pm | IP Logged | ||
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HI Guys,
I'm really grateful and impressed that you would respond so thoroughly to my post. Speakeasy, you can be as critical as you like when it comes to efficiency of learning: that is why I am here. To be fair, I am focusing on the Living Italian because I find that there is no fuzz around the grammar. However, their dialogues are pretty limiting and Take Off in Italian is actually quite good for that. I think i'm going to use Take Off In Italian just for pronunciation practise and not study it thoroughly like I do Living Italian. Is Assimil worth it? It seems a lot of money to splash on a course I have never seen or perused in the flesh. I read on Amazon that they say that they enable beginners to acquire (2000-3000) words. Is that true? The reading advice from both of you has been absolutely amazing. Thank you very much. I know that once I start reading, even if it is with difficulty, I will never turn back. Thanks George P.s How long is Assimil supposed to take ? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| drygramul Tetraglot Senior Member Italy Joined 4467 days ago 165 posts - 269 votes Speaks: Persian, Italian*, EnglishC2, GermanB2 Studies: French, Polish | Message 5 of 8 19 November 2014 at 12:53am | IP Logged | ||
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Assimil should cost around 20Euro without the audio. Being your target Italian - a language with a highly phonemic ortography - the need for the audio tracks is questionable.
However, although not being familiar with the Italian version, I doubt it adds something to what you already have. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Speakeasy Senior Member Canada Joined 4051 days ago 507 posts - 1098 votes Studies: German | Message 6 of 8 19 November 2014 at 2:18am | IP Logged | ||
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Hello George,
PRIVATE MESSAGE I sent you a private message supplementing my comments below. You'll need to login to consult your messages. ASSIMIL Although I have not yet tried Assimil Italian, I have worked through this publisher's courses for German, Dutch, Spanish, and Polish and I have been very favourably impressed. If you're not already familiar with the material, it is, essentially, a collection of 100 very brief dialogues and short exercises that are presented in increasing order of difficulty, with accompanying notes. At one-lesson-per-day (good luck with that one) you should be able to complete the course in about a year, or half a year, if you really apply yourself (yes, I can do the math). In my view, the strength of the Assimil method derives from the “sentence-pattern-like” nature of the dialogues and exercises. The dialogues are quite disparate and repetition of the accumulating mass of material has the “effect” of the intense sentence-pattern drills that are at the core of the FSI-Style courses ... meiner Meinung nach. The cadence of the speakers is, to my mind, slightly unrealistic in that it never achieves that of native-speakers. However, this should not be considered a weakness, as the slower cadence that Assimil adopts does, indeed, help the student in the initial stages. The explanatory notes that accompany the dialogues are, to my mind, something of disappointment and they need to be supplemented by a simple grammar. In my view, “what” is presnted in the Assimil notes is invariably correct; however, “the way” the the material is presented is rather opaque. I am often left with the impression that one must have already mastered the grammatical concepts that are presented in the notes in order to fully grasp the explanations thereof. In my opinion, the Linguaphone courses suffer from the same handicap. So... A VERY SIMPLE GRAMMAR Not very many self-study language courses present grammar in a straight-forward manner, the one exception being the Living Language “Ultimate” series which, sadly, is no longer in print. I suspect this is because our educational systems, in an effort to be more “inclusive” and “learner-centered”, have simply dummed-down the curricula. In fact, the word “grammar” is hardly ever mentioned anymore, having been supplanted by “structure” which is, apparently, a less threatening term as in: “Oh, my God, they’re going to teach me grammar. I don’t want to learn grammar, I only want to learn a language!” My recommendation would be that you acquire a very simple grammar, that you read it through rather superficially two or three times simply to gain an overview of how the language is structured, and that you put it aside until you need to clarify some particular point. I have found that, in the initial stages of learning a language, referring to more complete grammars was not very helpful. That is, the explanations often include details and exceptions-to-the-rule that are well beyond the scope of the beginner. Furthermore, the example sentences often employ vocabulary and structure to which the beginner has not yet been exposed and cannot really appreciate, let alone understand. Although many such simple grammars abound, here are a couple of suggestions for you to consider: Collins Easy Learning Italian Grammar McGraw-Hill Italian Verbs & Essentials of Grammar PIMSLEUR I have completed the full Pimsleur series for German, Spanish, Italian, and Dutch, all of which I thoroughly enjoyed. Also, I have attempted, but abandoned, their Polish and Russian courses, in favour of more conventional courses. The method is excellent for developing a sound “feeling” for the basics of a language, as well as an appreciation of a language’s standard pronunciation. Provided you practice regularly, you will actually retain what you have learned! Although Dr. Pimsleur did not develop the technique himself, he was the first person to apply it to the teaching of languages. Here’s the Wikipedia version of the story: Pimsleur Method. So then, it works! However, there are a few drawbacks, one being that it is quite expensive when compared to competitors’ courses. The least expensive price for this course is the four-level MP3 download version at 450 $US as offered by Simon and Schuster. The programme does not emphasize vocabulary and accordingly the full four-level programme contains, at best, approximately 1,200 word groups, which is not a lot. Most competing programmes introduce more vocabulary and bring the student to a higher grammatical level. Grammar is not specifically discussed as the student is meant to deduce the structure of a language from the conversations and explanations in the lesson material. This works to a limited extent. However, inevitably, gaps in one’s learning will appear that can be addressed only through consulting a grammar; hence my suggestion above. Apart from a so-called Reading Guide, there is no written material: none, nada! As a result, the student wishing to understand the written language, or those wishing to have a better appreciation of verb conjugations, must acquire a dictionary, a grammar, and a book of verbs and work backwards from the audio lessons. I have often wondered, quite seriously, if this was not part of Dr. Pimsleur’s plan to force students to learn on their own. Finally, simply completing the 120 lessons, each of which are about 30 minutes long, will "seem" intolerably long. However, in order to digest the material of most other courses, you will most likely invest a similar amount of time; it just won't "seem" as long. Okay, I have spent most of my time describing the drawbacks of this method, but believe me, if you follow the programme, you won’t regret it. MICHEL THOMAS Although Michel Thomas did not pioneer this particular method, he did achieve commercial success with it as well as developing a cult-like status amongst some independent language-learners. Essentially, the method attempts to simulate a classroom situation wherein Michel delivers some very basic language instruction to two participants. Everything is recorded. This means that (for people such as myself), one is exposed not only to Michel’s own very imperfect pronunciation and scratchy vocal cords, one is also assailed by the students’ bumbling responses and their even more imperfect attempts at correct pronunciation. And people like this! Did I mention that I don’t? BOOKS ONLY -- VERSUS -- BOOKS INCLUSIVE OF AUDIO Even if your ultimate goal is reading novels, I suggest that you acquire an "ear" for the target language. It will actually enhance your reading experience ...'nough said! YOUR BIGGEST INVESTMENT I suspect that those fortunate few, who can afford to have private language tutors following them around wherever they go, whispering linguistic pearls of knowledge into their spa-bronzed ears, are not likely to register as members of this particular language forum. The rest of us must work within a budget. Nonetheless, our BIGGEST INVESTMENT in language learning will not be financial, it will be the TIME we spend studying. So then, learn to spend yours wisely! Bonne chance! Speakeasy PS: PRIVATE MESSAGE Don’t forget to read your messages! Edited by Speakeasy on 19 November 2014 at 3:08am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4888 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 7 of 8 19 November 2014 at 4:41am | IP Logged | ||
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For me the audio is what makes Assimil a valuable course. As for whether it's worth it,
consider that you will probably spend close to 6 months working through the course - which, to my mind, helps justify the higher price. I agree with Speakeasy that it's really designed for people who know the basic structures of the language. Yeah, they claim that they'll bring you from absolute beginner to B-2, but I'd place that claim in the same compost heap I've put all the other language products' claims in. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Itikar Groupie Italy Joined 4668 days ago 94 posts - 158 votes Speaks: Italian* | Message 8 of 8 22 November 2014 at 2:32pm | IP Logged | ||
It's probably best to read novels written from the late 80's till today. Also, if I dare say, be careful with what you find on Italian newspapers because they use a peculiar register which is very different from how people really speak. As far as I have seen blogs, forums and to a certain extent social networks seem to me probably the best resources to familiarise oneself with Italian how it is actually spoken most of the time. I hope this is helpful. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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