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Being precise vs being close enough?

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Tyrion101
Senior Member
United States
Joined 3912 days ago
153 posts - 174 votes 
Speaks: French

 
 Message 9 of 20
10 December 2014 at 2:39am | IP Logged 
I suppose my goal is to be correct, that is it. Thanks for all the replies, they were very informative. I'll just find work something else that works better if there isn't a way of saying it in French.
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patrickwilken
Senior Member
Germany
radiant-flux.net
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Studies: German

 
 Message 10 of 20
10 December 2014 at 8:33am | IP Logged 
Tyrion101 wrote:
I suppose my goal is to be correct, that is it. Thanks for all the replies, they were very informative. I'll just find work something else that works better if there isn't a way of saying it in French.


I think your basic problem is that you haven't been exposed to enough native materials. Dictionaries are good at giving you approximate meanings of words (some more approximate than others). To really understand which words to use you need to have a ton of exposure to the language. The Antimoon site has some nice examples for some common English expressions that for non-natives are hard without adequate exposure:

Quote:
Do you get 'in' a car or 'on' a car? Do you get 'in' a bus or 'on' a 'bus'?

You do an exercise, but make a mistake; make a phone call, but have a conversation; do a job, but take a break; take a step, but make a jump.

You can give an opinion, but not an advice; buy a cake, but not a bread; move a table, but not a furniture; share a fact, but not an information.

You can have a bad/terrible headache, but not a strong/heavy headache; you can get great/enormous satisfaction, but not big satisfaction; you can be a heavy smoker, but not a hard/strong smoker etc.

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Serpent
Octoglot
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Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
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 Message 11 of 20
10 December 2014 at 1:53pm | IP Logged 
Yes, use native materials. (GLOSS is a good start)
And accuracy isn't always binary. Seems like you're entering the stage where some natives will say your wording is correct and others will disagree.
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Tyrion101
Senior Member
United States
Joined 3912 days ago
153 posts - 174 votes 
Speaks: French

 
 Message 12 of 20
14 December 2014 at 8:10pm | IP Logged 
One thing I've been told a couple of times by French speakers is that I am too mot à mot (literal) with my translations, and usually I'd see mot à mot, and translate that "word for word" which is fine, but in the context of the conversation it was meant as literal. How do I avoid being literal when context, especially when I am listening to the radio, which is at a very high speed, and just takes too long to come up with the right equivalent in English? I like reading because it gives you the time to slow down and think about the word. Some things I can figure out on my own, especially if it is hockey related, or science related, but others I just have a difficult time with not being literal. IS this something that all language learners come across?
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Ari
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Norway
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Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese
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 Message 13 of 20
14 December 2014 at 9:09pm | IP Logged 
So here's a common problem that happens to a lot of language learners:

Q: How do I say X in language Y?
A: You don't.

Often, things are expressed in a different way in different languages. By looking for an exact translation that communicates what you'd say in English, you end up saying something that's not very idiomatic in the target language, and you might be limiting the stuff you say to the areas where the two languages overlap.

An example: When you're telling someone of an annoying thing that happened to you and trying to convey what an a-hole that guy at work was, your interlocutor might say something like "Couldn't he just do it himself?" and you might answer "Right, that's my point!". So now you're learning Cantonese, and you want to know how to say this in Canto. Well, you could translate it as "啱, 就係我所想講嘅" and that'd be accurate, but it's not actually something you're likely to say in that situation. More likely would be "咪係囉!". That translates to something like "Isn't that what it is!". It's certainly not a translation of the English phrase, but it's the way you'd express the same sentiment in Cantonese.

So my point is something like: sometimes star gazing as an activity isn't even culturally relevant in the language in question. And rather than trying to find the correct way of saying what you'd have said in English, you'll want to try to find what a Frenchman would say in that situation instead. It might be different.

Not sure how well my post held together. This is sort of a subtle phenomenon that's difficult to give clear examples to. My Cantonese example might not even be that relevant.
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iguanamon
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Senior Member
Virgin Islands
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 Message 14 of 20
14 December 2014 at 10:47pm | IP Logged 
Ari is absolutely right, as usual, :). I had one of my usual long-winded responses written but this quote from Khatzumoto via emk sums it up nicely:

Khatzumoto wrote:
You don't learn a language, you get used to it.

Learning the first second language is the hardest. No doubt about it. There are some things you just have to accept and incorporate- "Oh, the French say that this way".

Edited by iguanamon on 14 December 2014 at 11:12pm
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Tyrion101
Senior Member
United States
Joined 3912 days ago
153 posts - 174 votes 
Speaks: French

 
 Message 15 of 20
14 December 2014 at 11:17pm | IP Logged 
Ari wrote:
So here's a common problem that happens to a lot of language learners:

Q: How do I say X in language Y?
A: You don't.

Often, things are expressed in a different way in different languages. By looking for an exact translation that communicates what you'd say in English, you end up saying something that's not very idiomatic in the target language, and you might be limiting the stuff you say to the areas where the two languages overlap.

An example: When you're telling someone of an annoying thing that happened to you and trying to convey what an a-hole that guy at work was, your interlocutor might say something like "Couldn't he just do it himself?" and you might answer "Right, that's my point!". So now you're learning Cantonese, and you want to know how to say this in Canto. Well, you could translate it as "啱, 就係我所想講嘅" and that'd be accurate, but it's not actually something you're likely to say in that situation. More likely would be "咪係囉!". That translates to something like "Isn't that what it is!". It's certainly not a translation of the English phrase, but it's the way you'd express the same sentiment in Cantonese.

So my point is something like: sometimes star gazing as an activity isn't even culturally relevant in the language in question. And rather than trying to find the correct way of saying what you'd have said in English, you'll want to try to find what a Frenchman would say in that situation instead. It might be different.

Not sure how well my post held together. This is sort of a subtle phenomenon that's difficult to give clear examples to. My Cantonese example might not even be that relevant.


Thanks, that helped a lot.
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Serpent
Octoglot
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Russian Federation
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 Message 16 of 20
15 December 2014 at 1:02am | IP Logged 
And yeah, that's a phase that most language learners go through, especially if they don't grow up bilingual or learn through immersion (and even then they might translate in their mind, even if they're forbidden to use L1 in class or something).

Oh and by all means, don't try to translate while listening to the radio. Especially if you can already understand it but keep looking for the right equivalent. You don't need the equivalent unless you're a translator/interpreter (and even they should be able to understand directly and then translate the meaning).

Even while reading, don't worry too much about equivalents. Give yourself time for swimming freely in the sea of L2, otherwise you'll find it hard to speak without thinking in L1 first and translating. Which is basically the root of your problem - you sound unnatural because you don't seem to think in L2.


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