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Thought provoking article about Esperanto | ||
Tags: Esperanto | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Esperanto |  | |
| nissimb Tetraglot Groupie India tenjikuyamato.blogsp Joined 6418 days ago 79 posts - 102 votes  Speaks: Marathi*, Hindi, English, Japanese Studies: Korean, Esperanto, Indonesian | Message 1 of 16 21 August 2007 at 5:18am | IP Logged | ||
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Came across this article about Esperanto.
http://www.christopherculver.com/en/writings/esperanto.php There has been a lot of Esperanto-bashing on this forum lately, so before someone misunderstands, I need to clarify that I have no intention to bash Esperanto (or any other language). Although I am not an Esperantist, I find Esperanto beautiful and having a unique culture. So my own attitude to Esperanto is "politike neuxtrala" :)) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Sprachprofi Nonaglot Senior Member Germany learnlangs.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6474 days ago 2608 posts - 4866 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Esperanto, Greek, Mandarin, Latin, Dutch, Italian Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swahili, Indonesian, Japanese, Modern Hebrew, Portuguese | Message 2 of 16 21 August 2007 at 6:32am | IP Logged | ||
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You may also want to read a Slovak Esperanto speaker's reply to the article:
http://co.uea.org/~tejo/diversity.htm It is kind of weird to expect congresses and conferences where the only language common to everybody is Esperanto to encourage the use of national languages. That would mean excluding lots of participants from the program and the discussions, as well as defeat the purpose of having an Esperanto congress. Also, there is hardly a chance of me discussing holiday customs with a Nepalese, a Korean, a Chinese, an Australian, a Frenchman and a Brazilian in any language besides Esperanto. However, for those who can find another common language, congresses do encourage the practice of foreign languages on a private level between the participants e. g. in the Alligatorejo (place where you may speak any language except your native language and Esperanto). Congresses and meetings always come with excursions to see the local sights and usually there is also an "International Evening" where all participants are asked to present something about their country and culture, apart from the inofficial exchanges that happen 24/7. Sometimes there's also a "National Evening" where only the host country presents itself (food, songs, dances, basic phrases in their language etc.). I really don't see how Esperanto congresses fail to include an exchange of cultures... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Marc Frisch Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6669 days ago 1001 posts - 1169 votes Speaks: German*, French, English, Spanish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Persian, Tamil | Message 3 of 16 21 August 2007 at 7:31am | IP Logged | ||
That's not such an exotic combination as it seems and if people from those nations meet anywhere on the planet, English is the only likely common language (except if they happen to meet at a) an Esperanto congress b) a conference on French philology in Paris c) the Hajj in Mekka d) an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting in Berlin) For example, I once discussed New Year celebration customs with people from Iran, Cambodia, Vietnam, the Philippines, France, India, and Spain. The only language we had in common was English (French was a close second with only 3 people at the table not speaking it). Nobody spoke Esperanto (to be honest I don't know, but it's unlikely, as I'd suppose an Esperantist would at least bring up the subject). Situations like that arise naturally in the context of scientific conferences and in that case, English is almost always the only common language. Edited by Marc Frisch on 21 August 2007 at 7:35am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6772 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 4 of 16 21 August 2007 at 7:52am | IP Logged | ||
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Hm, whatever happened to the local lingua franca being, well, the lingua franca? Here in Japan, I frequently have conversations with people of mixed nationalities — Brazilians, Turks, Paraguayans, Canadians — and often with no Japanese present, but we still use Japanese because it's the only common language.
More on topic, I have no personal problem with the politics of Esperanto, and would happily see it reduce the use of English as an international auxiliary language. However, I still think it would be much more valuable to promote the use of other real languages, and I can't see any value in learning Esperanto myself. Taking on a real human language with all his history, secrets, and hidden treasures is such an adventure. Edited by Captain Haddock on 21 August 2007 at 8:00am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| el topo Diglot Groupie Belgium Joined 6764 days ago 66 posts - 71 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Dutch | Message 5 of 16 21 August 2007 at 8:58am | IP Logged | ||
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I used to like the idea of IAL, and even started studying Esperanto a few years ago, but stopped before even reaching the intermediate level. The thing is that it will always stay what it is now - a language only spoken by a relatively small number of Esperanto enthusiasts (unless it goes completely extinct, of course). Not that I have anything against studying minority languages, but this "minority status" of Esperanto (and let's face it - it ain't gonna change) is in such huge contrast with its intended purpose that studying it seems utterly pointless. At least to me. Edited by el topo on 21 August 2007 at 10:54am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Sprachprofi Nonaglot Senior Member Germany learnlangs.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6474 days ago 2608 posts - 4866 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Esperanto, Greek, Mandarin, Latin, Dutch, Italian Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swahili, Indonesian, Japanese, Modern Hebrew, Portuguese | Message 6 of 16 21 August 2007 at 10:49am | IP Logged | ||
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I guess what language you use depends where you meet people - obviously people meeting at an international science conference are more likely to speak the language that is crucial for the science and people living in a foreign country are more likely to know that foreign country's language and people at an Esperanto meeting are likely to choose Esperanto as a language of communication. I can assure you that there was no other common language for us. English was spoken by everybody except the Nepalese and the Korean, however also for the Chinese and the French it was a language they didn't master nearly as well, so they wouldn't have been able to say as much in it.
I believe that apart from scholars and people living in a foreign country, if you just ask regular people on the street in many countries, you will find that few of them can readily talk to you in English (or any other world language that's not the country's language). The attempts to teach English (or in the past Russian) etc. to the average people, the ones that don't have a university education, are failing miserably, especially outside of Europe. There are people who spent 10 years learning English and who can't even have a normal conversation today. Some also despise being made to learn a language that they associate with cultural domination (that's the case with many East Germans about Russian for example, and quite a few French about English). The language problem is far from solved. If some time everybody, not just the well-educated, should be able to communicate with people from foreign countries, we need a language that is both neutral and much easier to learn than English. As of yet, Esperanto isn't as common a second language (though you'd be surprised how often people told me that they had learned Esperanto, once I mention the language) as English is. That may very well change in the next 50 years, seeing Esperanto's development so far and the possibilities that globalization, the internet and a climate of open-mindedness give us now. However, already now I find it very gratifying to speak Esperanto to people from all over the world: because in most cases the communication goes more smoothly than in English and the people who speak Esperanto are not necessarily part of the local elite. For example, if you find a Chinese (PRC) person who speaks English well enough to have a conversation with you, you can be sure that he went to an elite university, has rather more money or power than most and is 100% indoctrinated. Esperanto speakers in the PRC come from all social levels and some of them are quite ready to openly discuss the regime and political issues. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Vlad Trilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member Czechoslovakia foreverastudent.com Joined 6588 days ago 443 posts - 576 votes 2 sounds Speaks: Czech*, Slovak*, Hungarian*, Mandarin, EnglishC2, GermanC2, ItalianC1, Spanish, Russian, Polish, Serbian, French Studies: Persian, Taiwanese, Romanian, Portuguese | Message 7 of 16 21 August 2007 at 11:12am | IP Logged | ||
I like your ideas, but this one is a little off. I have several friends from PRC, who certainly do not go to elite universities or are the local elite and speak wonderfull english with highly above standard vocabulary and are not indoctrinated. Edited by Vlad on 21 August 2007 at 11:16am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Marc Frisch Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6669 days ago 1001 posts - 1169 votes Speaks: German*, French, English, Spanish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Persian, Tamil | Message 8 of 16 21 August 2007 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | ||
First of all, let me say that I have no bad feelings against Esperanto whatsoever and I sincerely believe that most Esperantists are far more concerned with language diversity than average. However, I don't think that what you call the 'language problem' (i.e. that you can't communicate with everybody on the planet) is really worth solving. Average people (unlike the language enthusiasts on this forum) learn languages out of necessity and abandon useless languages willingly. That's why I don't speak my mother's native language, a dialect close to Luxembourgish, which she didn't consider important enough to teach me. Now, imagine a world where everyone speaks Esperanto fluently. Of course you'd speak your native language with other native speakers but what would be the incentive to learn French when living in France if you can get by with Esperanto? I mean I've never even tried to learn Provençal here in Southern France. And would I teach my children German here in France when Esperanto is all they need (well, I probably would but most people won't, e.g. my aunt emigrated to Canada 20 years ago and none of her children speaks passable German). I mean, that kind of thing happens all over the world with languages like English, Spanish, German, Chinese, Russian, French, etc. Why should it be different with Esperanto if it was similarly strong? I know that's not the Esperantist ideal but that's how normal people function. In my opinion, ANY international language understood by everybody, be it English, Esperanto or Chinese, would be a complete disaster for language diversity, as it removes the NECESSITY of learning a local language. You can't have global communication and diversity at the same time and I'd gladly choose the latter over the former. So if internationalism isn't the solution for preserving language diversity, what is? Regionalism. If you live in Wales, speak Welsh. In Quebec, speak French. And in Munich, speak Bavarian. Edited by Marc Frisch on 21 August 2007 at 12:47pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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