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 Language Learning Forum : Lessons in Polyglottery |  | |
| Kugel Senior Member United States Joined 6543 days ago 497 posts - 555 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 1 of 12 11 November 2007 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I know that I was guilty of trying to learn a foreign language for superficial reasons when I first became interested in foreign language studies. I suppose one glaring sign would be this: wanting to learn a foreign language while not even knowing one's native tongue at an advanced level. If someone only reads a book or two per year, doesn't know advanced vocab in his native tongue, and no solid understanding of grammar in his native tongue, then why exactly does this person want to learn a foreign language? Do you see this being common for students getting their feet wet in foreign languages? Do you think knowing one's native tongue to an advanced level is irrelevant when it comes to jumping into foreign language studies? Edited by Kugel on 11 November 2007 at 4:17pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6444 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 2 of 12 11 November 2007 at 4:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
What qualifies something as a superficial reason?
Any number of reasons - the person could move, gain an interest in the culture, need the language for business purposes, feel the need for a hobby, or any number of other perfectly legitimate reasons to learn a language. If someone only reads a book or two per year, perhaps there's a good reason for it (a physical and/or mental problem, for instance - severe dyslexia would certainly qualify) - or perhaps it's a reason to change, and read more. What counts as advanced vocabulary? Why does it -matter-? As for grammar: I think a large number of people don't consciously know the grammar of their own first languages when they set out to learn other ones, and next to no native English speakers do, as it's not taught. I personally didn't, and I seriously doubt I would have ever set about studying it for its own sake. However, I've picked up quite a bit of knowledge about grammar in the process of learning other languages. I would argue that this is a perfectly legitimate way to do so. There have been accomplished polyglots who were also illiterate.
I think that having an extremely good knowledge of one's native tongue may be useful. However, you seem to have a perfectly good grasp of your own: for instance, you use apostrophes correctly. You may not be able to describe it, or know grammatical terms, but you do have a good command of English. A question perhaps worth asking is this: if you -weren't- interested in other languages, would you be worrying about this? If not, that strikes me as a clear reason to pursue your studies: you will not be any worse off, and may learn something in the process. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| apparition Octoglot Senior Member United States Joined 6655 days ago 600 posts - 667 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Written), French, Arabic (Iraqi), Portuguese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Pashto | Message 3 of 12 11 November 2007 at 6:48pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Hmm. As an adjunct to this, I'm wondering if it's inevitable that, if you speak in your native tongue with a certain 'laxity', let's say, then you will speak only at that level in any foreign languages, as well. If you don't use a great deal of vocabulary in your native language, then is there any reason to try to learn a great deal in a foreign language?
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| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6444 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 4 of 12 12 November 2007 at 12:33am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I don't see why that there is any reason why it's not possible to speak a non-native language better than your native one. I've heard that some children, who are educated in a non-native language throughout their lives and/or given limited contact with their native language do so. I suspect that an adult who put his/her mind to it could also end up with a higher level in a non-native language. I don't know how good Joseph Conrad's Polish was, but his use of language in his English novels is quite striking. More simply, given a perfectly good command of grammar, and an adequate, if not outstanding and ostentatious grasp of vocabulary, I don't see any particular barrier to achieving a high level of fluency in a second language, even if one can't expect to be its next Shakespeare. Lastly, is there any reason not to develop in one's native language while striving to also learn others? I've found gains made in one language often have a degree of transference possible, especially with related ones. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| ProfArguelles Moderator United States foreignlanguageexper Joined 7261 days ago 609 posts - 2102 votes | Message 5 of 12 18 November 2007 at 5:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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The study of foreign languages is, philologically, philosophically, and psychologically speaking, an endeavor to expand your conception of the category of Language. You can best do this in a comparative context, and your main basis for comparison is your native language. Thus, in answer to the original question, consciously knowing your native language to an advanced and refined level is absolutely crucial in the successful and efficient conscious study of other languages. Polishing your ability to express yourself in your native language is an excellent preliminary to the study of foreign languages, and if your range of vocabulary is wide to begin with, you will find much more transparency in other tongues. Since English is the de facto default language of anyone reading this, I would suggest that, if you are facing any kinds of frustrations or difficulties in your forays into foreign languages, you would probably profit greatly if you were to put them on hold so that you could first work though a good old-fashioned guide to grammar and composition, such as the Harbrace College Handbook. When you return to the study of foreign languages, I am sure that you will find that consciously knowing the rules of higher register English will be of inestimable assistance to you.
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| strossel Triglot Groupie Joined 6488 days ago 47 posts - 48 votes Speaks: English*, Swedish, French Studies: Icelandic, Hungarian | Message 6 of 12 18 November 2007 at 5:48pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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As someone who is trained at a high level in a field intimately connected with the use of language, and in which much revolves around minute details of language use (the law), I believe that short of studying law to a comparable level in any of my foreign languages, I will always function at a 'lower' level in these languages than in English, as I could not function in the legal jargon of those countries merely by learning the relevant vocabulary - more is required.
Short of there being a legal system identical to that of my home country, merely transposed into a foreign language, I do not think I could function in the legal sphere without legal as opposed to language acquisition training. So, I must adjust my expectations in my target languages, and always remember in which sphere I intend to use them. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6277 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 7 of 12 23 November 2007 at 9:28am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I assume Conrad's Polish was good, but he made a career outside Poland and so did not write novels etc. in Polish. (For comparison, Kafka could speak Czech but his education was in German and he never wrote in Czech.) Conrad's conversational English was apparently imperfect. George Orwell noted Conrad's habit of putting the adjective after the noun in writing English and attributed this to Conrad learning French before English. However, that word order can also be a Polish trait. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| zerothinking Senior Member Australia Joined 6377 days ago 528 posts - 772 votes Speaks: English* | Message 8 of 12 16 January 2008 at 7:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I don't believe a conscious knowledge of any sort of linguistics or special vocabulary is necessary for a native in learning another language. I know this because when I started learning French, I didn't know what a verb, noun, adjective or a past particple were, and many words I learnt in French, I had to learn the word in English (I didn't know the word in the translation into English) Edited by zerothinking on 16 January 2008 at 7:39pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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