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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| JW Hexaglot Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/egw Joined 6123 days ago 1802 posts - 2011 votes  22 sounds Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Ancient Greek, French, Biblical Hebrew Studies: Luxembourgish, Dutch, Greek, Italian | Message 9 of 31 03 January 2011 at 6:57pm | IP Logged | ||
I would summarize it as follows: Modern Greek is very similar to Italian and Spanish and I have heard others say the same. However, Koine Greek is not at all similiar to these languages. However, Koine and Modern Greek are also very similar. Also, for reference, Greek can be broken down historically as follows: Formative - prehistoric origin through Homer (900 BC) Classical - Homer (900 BC) to the Alexandrian Conquest (c. 330 BC) Koine - 330 BC - 330 AD Byzantine - 330 AD - 1453 AD Modern - 1453 AD to Present 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 6143 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 10 of 31 03 January 2011 at 7:32pm | IP Logged | ||
Good questions. Modern Greek has lots of loanwords/influences, mainly from Turkish, English, Italian, French, and Latin. Actually some the loanwords from Turkish are loanwords into that language themselves, usually from Persian or Arabic. Here are a couple examples: TURKISH: ντουλάπα (dulápa; closet), χαλί (xalí; carpet), γιαούρτι (yaúrti; yogurt) ENGLISH: γκρέιπφρουτ (gréipfrut; grapefruit), μπέικον (béikon; bacon) ITALIAN: καπέλο (kapélo; hat), μελιτζάνα (melidzána; eggplant) FRENCH: πορτ-μπαγκάζ (port-bagáz; trunk), παλτό (paltó; coat), καφέ (kafé; brown/coffee-colored), ζαμπόν (zambón; ham) LATIN: λουλούδι (lulúdhi; flower), σπίτι (spíti; house) There are other words, like φούστα (fústa; skirt), which Modern Greek shares with other languages of the region such as Bulgarian and Romanian, but I don't know the origin of these. I don't know of any Albanian or Armenian influences, but there might be some. Slavic influences are also possible, probably more so than Armenian or Albanian, but again, I don't know of any. Greek tries to keep its purity, but also accepts many foreign words, as seen above. For example, the international word "restaurant," which even in Japanese is レストラン (resutoran), is εστιατόριο (estiatório) in Greek and "computer," which is コンピューター (kompyūtā) in Japanese, is υπολογιστής (ipoloyistís) in Greek. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 11 of 31 04 January 2011 at 3:04am | IP Logged | ||
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I won't comment on the history of Greek as I haven't studied it in detail. As for foreign vocabulary it is fairly restricted, but a number of Ancient Greek words have entered scientific language i Western Europe. The problem is that these words sometimes have changed their meaning drastically in Dhimotiki. But Ellasevia's post covers these things fairly well. So I'll just mention some grammatical quirks.
The old Greek infinitive has been lost (to the extent that 1.p. singular of the present tense is used in dictionaries). Instead of the infinitive constructions of other languages Modern Greek has subordinate constructions, as for instance in "Θα ήθελα να μάθω ελληνικά" ("I would like to learn Greek", literally "(I) [optative marker] wanted to [subjonctive marker] learn Greek"). In Dhimotiki there are two stems, the present stem and the aorist stems. The present forms of the present stem have the uses that elsewhere are covered by the indicative present, whereas the aorist stem with the endings of the present covers both roles of a present subjunctive (with the marker να) and future (with the marker θα). The present stem with past endings (and a move of the accent to the left) has the function of an imperfect, while similar endings on an aorist stem function roughly as a perfect BUT - as you can see above - with να the form suddenly functions more like a past tense in the subjunctive ("as in German "ich möchte Griechisch lernen"). Italian speakers will of course recognize the similarity with their imperfetto/passato remoto, but there the similarities end - and I can't see that Italian has much in common with the system in Dhimotiki. On the other hand the weakening of the infinitive - with the resultant - effect on the syntax - is found in other Balkan languages, including Romanian: "Aş vrea să învăţ româneşte", and as for the role of Greek 'aspect' it is interesting to note that this in Bulgarian is crossed with a purely Slavic aspect system - at least this is what my Bulgarian grammar tells me, but I have not yet understood how the Bulgarians can manage such a system) Dhimotiki has actually also got a compound (or periphrastic) past tense, which is very common, but roughly functions like it does in the Romance languages (i.e. it is encroaching on the area of the aorist). In English this form in Greek is called 'perfect', which patently adds to the confusion. In Italian there is no synthetic passive as there was in Latin. But even Modern Greek has got a fully developed set of passive forms, and here the parallel between the endings of the present stem (present and past) and those of aorist breaks down. The former are simply made by fusing forms of 'to be' to the end of the present stem, whereas the forms (present and past) based on the aorist stem introduce the consonant τ, often weakened to θ: "μαθεύτηκε" (it was learned). In the Nordic languages we also have synthetic passives, but not combined with two aspects. Also here there are periphrastic constructions ("ήταν κατανοητό ότι..." = "it was understood that.."), but the synthetic forms still seem to dominate. So far I have only described the verbal system, including the effect the lack of an infinitve has, but if you look at adjectives and nouns you will find that there are four cases: vocative, nominative, accusative and genitive (I use their Latin names because I still haven't got Greek grammar written in Greek). This doesn't exactly make the language look more like Romance languages, but more like the Germanic or Slavic ones - if you except the one Romance language on Balkan, Romanian, which has the same four cases. So the conclusion is clear: there are strong similarities with other Balkanic languages - across the traditional families - whereas any links to languages outside the region are limited and unreliable. Edited by Iversen on 04 January 2011 at 10:14pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| ruskivyetr Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5482 days ago 769 posts - 962 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish, Russian, Polish, Modern Hebrew | Message 12 of 31 04 January 2011 at 4:39am | IP Logged | ||
To quote wikipedia: Katharevousa (Greek: Καθαρεύουσα, [kaθaˈrevusa], lit. "purifying [language]"), is a form of the Greek language conceived in the early 19th century as a compromise between Ancient Greek and the Modern Greek of the time, with a vocabulary largely based on ancient forms, but a much-simplified grammar. Originally, it was widely used both for literary and official purposes, though seldom in daily language. In the 20th century, it was increasingly just for official and formal purposes, until in 1976, Dimotiki became the official language of Greece. So Demotic is the only official language now. Kartharevousa is absolutely obsolete. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Nudimmud Groupie United States Joined 5193 days ago 87 posts - 161 votes Studies: Greek, Korean | Message 13 of 31 04 January 2011 at 4:59am | IP Logged | ||
It would be interesting to see a study of what percentage of Greek vocabulary is foreign vs. native and what the related levels of frequency and register were. (of course there are myriad other details that qualify such thing, e.g. is 'sinema' a foreign borrowing (from French cinema) or ultimately considered native (from kinomatographo?) I haven't seen such a study but I'm sure they exist. Anecdotally, when I listen to Greek popular music from the 30s - 60s, I'm often sent running to the dictionary to look up words which turn out to be of Turkish origin. On the occasions that I've run those words by native speakers and asked about usage, I'm usually told that such words are restricted to song or the social milieu of the 'manges' of the period. So, my impression, again anecdotal, is that over time many Turkish words have fallen out of use and others sound 'folksy'. Of course there are still a large number in every day usage that are now considered perfectly everyday words and not informal or proletariat in the least. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 14 of 31 04 January 2011 at 11:56am | IP Logged | ||
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I think it is symptomatic that the Greeks use Greek gods to name the planets, - everybody else use the Latin names.
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| stelingo Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5833 days ago 722 posts - 1076 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Czech, Polish, Greek, Mandarin | Message 15 of 31 04 January 2011 at 2:11pm | IP Logged | ||
As I understand it θα followed by the present tense indicates future, followed by the past iense it indicates conditional. The subjunctive is indicated by να. (as you yourself write when explaining your example: "Θα ήθελα να μάθω ελληνικά" ("I would like to learn Greek", literally "(I) [optative marker] wanted to [subjonctive marker] learn Greek") Edited by stelingo on 04 January 2011 at 2:12pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 16 of 31 05 January 2011 at 11:03am | IP Logged | ||
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You are correct, - I accidentally switched them when I inserted the Greek letters. Thanks for pointing it out.
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