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Hebrew Pronunciation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| JW Hexaglot Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/egw Joined 6127 days ago 1802 posts - 2011 votes  22 sounds Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Ancient Greek, French, Biblical Hebrew Studies: Luxembourgish, Dutch, Greek, Italian | Message 1 of 16 27 July 2010 at 9:40pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I am trying to work on my Hebrew Pronunciation and need some help. Are Sephardic and
Ashkenazi pronunciation two equally valid alternatives or is the Sephardic inferior? For example, I found this: "Sephardic Jews have a different pronunciation of a few Hebrew vowels and one Hebrew consonant, though most Ashkenazim are adopting Sephardic pronunciation now because it is the pronunciation used in Israel." But then I have also heard from a relaible source that Sephardic pronunciation is to be avoided. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tangentaxis Newbie United States Joined 6134 days ago 8 posts - 9 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Esperanto, Yiddish, Faroese | Message 2 of 16 28 July 2010 at 4:34am | IP Logged | |||||
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Sephardic pronunciation tends to be the standard since it is used in Israeli Hebrew. Ashkenazic pronunciation, though still valid, tends to be used mainly by Orthodox communities with ties to eastern Europe in their daily prayers.
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| laban Triglot Groupie Israel Joined 5827 days ago 87 posts - 96 votes Speaks: Modern Hebrew*, English, Italian Studies: Norwegian, German | Message 3 of 16 01 August 2010 at 12:10am | IP Logged | |||||
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are you asking from a "jewish prayer style" pov? or is the spoken language you're after?
When it comes to prayer/reading styles of both "sects" - there are differences, but I wouldn't say one is inf/sup over the other. (although fanatics from both sides might say otherwise). This sentence, btw, "most Ashkenazim are adopting Sephardic pronunciation now because it is the pronunciation used in Israel" - is higly improbable, since the Ashkenazim have always considered themselves better, even today. so that claims against anything that is Sephardi makes perfect sense coming from an Ashkenazi, though it does work vice versa as well - especially today. I wouldn't want to drift off topic or even get into this discussion - but briefly, the demographic nature in israel is changing dramatically, when Sephardic population is rapidly increasing while most Ashkenazim are assimilated and disappearing on a worrying scale. This effect is causing many changes to the face and core of the country and is showing boldly. plus a phenomena similar to "reverse reacism" is occurring and contributes to the events above. Now, if you were refering to the spoken language, then the terms Ashkenazi and Sephardi are treated a bit differently. Here, the differences lie, mainly, in the pronunciation of 2 vowels and slang/street talk. Again with the same sentence "Sephardic pronunciation now because it is the pronunciation used in Israel". The clean Sephardic pronunciation is considerd to be the correct way in which hebrew should be spoken. but, most speakers, including most Sephardim, tend to not use it properly since it is rather strident. The 2 vowels in question here make 2 guttural voices that might sound like arabic to non speakers. Anywise, the differences are negligible so it doesn't matter which one you'll choose, for as long as you learn the language, you'll be able to speak and understand with these small variations. I would advise you though to start and get accustomed to the one that suits you better - depends on your origin - just so you don't look weird talking or offend anyone by mistake ;P. Hope this helps, Good Luck! EDIT - wow it seems like I lost my train of thought several times here, hence why it looks so awful. hope it helped anyways. Edited by laban on 01 August 2010 at 1:52am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| nogoodnik Senior Member United States Joined 5574 days ago 372 posts - 461 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Modern Hebrew, Biblical Hebrew, Russian, French | Message 4 of 16 02 August 2010 at 2:23am | IP Logged | |||||
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Are you speaking about Modern or Biblical Hebrew?
"Sephardic Jews have a different pronunciation of a few Hebrew vowels and one Hebrew consonant, though most Ashkenazim are adopting Sephardic pronunciation now because it is the pronunciation used in Israel." Even though Laban doesn't agree with the statement I sort of do if we are talking about prayerbook Hebrew. In every Modern Orthodox (or Dati Leumi) synagogue I've been to, they use standard Israeli pronunciation for prayers. I think they do this for political reasons, and to seem "with the times." I have never heard a Modern Orthodox Rabbi use Ashkenazi pronunciation for prayers, even if they are Ashkenazi. The non-elderly Ashkenazi Jews in MO shuls tend to use standard Israeli pronunciation as well. I've observed that elderly Ashkenazi Jews are more likely to stick with the Ashkenazi nusach though. This is just my experience and I'm sure that it's not universally true. On the other hand, Hasidic and Ashkenazi Haredi Jews use the Ashkenazi pronunciations. I have never heard a Hasidic Jew pray with non-Ashkenazi pronunciation, and have found it to be sort of taboo. "But then I have also heard from a relaible source that Sephardic pronunciation is to be avoided" was this reliable source Ashkenazi by any chance? If we are talking about Prayerbook and Biblical Hebrew, there's no standard or better pronunciation. I actually use both, depending on where I am, and I'm Ashkenazi. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| laban Triglot Groupie Israel Joined 5827 days ago 87 posts - 96 votes Speaks: Modern Hebrew*, English, Italian Studies: Norwegian, German | Message 5 of 16 02 August 2010 at 12:47pm | IP Logged | |||||
Now, it seems to me we might have differently interpreted the pronunciation types, especially the "Israeli pronunciation". what do you mean by Israeli pronunciation? is it todays spoken language? Anywise, to my experience - every Ashkenazi synagogue I've been to uses Ashkenazi pronunciation, accentuation and prayer singing style (and vice versa), so I'm still not sure what you mean by "Israeli pronunciation"? Edited by laban on 02 August 2010 at 12:49pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| nogoodnik Senior Member United States Joined 5574 days ago 372 posts - 461 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Modern Hebrew, Biblical Hebrew, Russian, French | Message 6 of 16 02 August 2010 at 7:55pm | IP Logged | |||||
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By Israeli pronunciation, I mean essentially Modern Israeli Hebrew, which is based on Sephardic pronunciation (but without the two gutteral vowels.)
I'm not a linguist, just a lady who has had to sit through way too many prayer services in a lot of different synagogues with a variety of hashkafot and I get bored and observe what is going on around me. There are no real rules here. A person can use whatever pronunciation they want and I doubt anyone would care. Most of the synagogues I've been to are made up of prodominately Ashkenazi Jews (by chance and not design) and are "National Religious" or Modern Orthodox. They tend to pray in an Ashkenazi nusach with Modern Hebrew pronunciation. My guesses for the reasons they do this are to align themselves with the State of Israel and because they detest the "galut mentality" of their Haredi coreligionists. My boyfriend is Mizrahi and just uses his own siddur (based on the nusach of Ovadia Yosef) when he goes to these type of synagogues. Noone really cares which pronunciation you use but the trend is definitely away from Ashkenazi pronunciation which is seen as too Yiddishized and out-dated. If a synagogue is Litvish, Hasidic, or Yekkish they of course would use only the Ashkenazi pronunciation. They all have a different prayer book and chanting style and it would be extremely taboo if you were a Litvish Ashkenazi and all of a sudden decided to switch to a Sephardic pronunciation. However, if you are an outsider just visiting the place, I doubt most people would care what style you decided to use. I'm not sure what the Conservative/Masorti Jews do. The Reform synagogues I've been to tend to use less Hebrew in their prayers, but I'm told that they are trending toward incorporating more Hebrew into their services. I'm not sure which pronunciation they use. Btw the observations above only go for the USA and Israel. I have no idea what those Jews in Europe do. I've only been to Chabad houses over there and they use the Ashkenazi style (but they're a Hasidic group so that's to be expected.) I know this info is convoluted and too subjective. OP, just listen to the different reading styles and pick the one that sounds the most beautiful to you. It's not so difficult to switch back and forth anyway if need be. edited for spelling errors. I am a yekke :) Edited by nogoodnik on 02 August 2010 at 8:36pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| JW Hexaglot Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/egw Joined 6127 days ago 1802 posts - 2011 votes 22 sounds Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Ancient Greek, French, Biblical Hebrew Studies: Luxembourgish, Dutch, Greek, Italian | Message 7 of 16 02 August 2010 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
I like this advice. Are there any websites that give examples of the reading styles? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| nogoodnik Senior Member United States Joined 5574 days ago 372 posts - 461 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Modern Hebrew, Biblical Hebrew, Russian, French | Message 8 of 16 02 August 2010 at 9:02pm | IP Logged | |||||
Here is one example of Sephardi. And another Here and here is the Ashkenazi version. This site also looks promising. It contains readings in both Ashkenazi and Sephardic styles 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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