28 messages over 4 pages: 1 2 3 4 Next >>
The Real CZ
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5650 days ago
1069 posts - 1495 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Japanese, Korean
| Message 9 of 28 16 August 2010 at 4:02am | IP Logged |
"impediment to literacy." - Probably the only thing I'll agree with him there.
Earlier I was talking to a Korean friend on Facebook and he says he hardly knows any hanja.
1 person has voted this message useful
| ChristopherB
Triglot
Senior Member
New Zealand
Joined 6317 days ago
851 posts - 1074 votes
2 sounds
Speaks: English*, German, French
| Message 10 of 28 16 August 2010 at 1:10pm | IP Logged |
Nice to see you back on the forums, Jiwon.
Jiwon wrote:
Huliganov wrote:
| Is it true that in the North the reading of some Chinese characters varies from thath given in South Korea? Does that mean in some cases the meaning ascribed in Korean vary from the Chinese meanings quite a bit? |
|
|
- Don't know about the first question. I'm not sure what you are trying to ask in the second question. But I should say not all characters are used in the same way as they are Mandarin Chinese as Korean and Mandarin have very different grammatical structures. |
|
|
I think he's asking whether the pronunciations and meanings of certain characters differ in North Korea from those in South Korea. As far as I know, hanja aren't used at all anymore in North Korea, though presumably they still exist in North Korean dictionaries.
It would be very interesting if you could elaborate on the differences in usage between Chinese and Korean like you mentioned. I take it certain Chinese grammatical characters like 的 and 們 and the like are used completely differently in Korean, if in fact they're used at all, but how consistent are the pronunciations and meanings of character compounds borrowed from Chinese? I know 先生 is the equivalent of 선생, for example, and the pronunciation is essentially the same (allowing for differences in each language's respective phonetic systems).
To concretize the question a bit:
Would studying modern, written Chinese count as hanja study, or are there too many discrepancies between the Korean and Chinese usages? It's difficult to find sources indicating just how much of a transfer there is for someone with a good reading knowledge of traditional Chinese who takes on Korean.
1 person has voted this message useful
| Huliganov
Octoglot
Senior Member
Poland
huliganov.tvRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5356 days ago
91 posts - 304 votes
Speaks: English*, Polish, French, German, Russian, Spanish, Esperanto, Czech
Studies: Romanian, Turkish, Mandarin, Japanese, Hungarian
| Message 11 of 28 16 August 2010 at 5:44pm | IP Logged |
ChristopherB wrote:
Nice to see you back on the forums, Jiwon.
Jiwon wrote:
Huliganov wrote:
| Is it true that in the North the reading of some Chinese characters varies from thath given in South Korea? Does that mean in some cases the meaning ascribed in Korean vary from the Chinese meanings quite a bit? |
|
|
- Don't know about the first question. I'm not sure what you are trying to ask in the second question. But I should say not all characters are used in the same way as they are Mandarin Chinese as Korean and Mandarin have very different grammatical structures. |
|
|
I think he's asking whether the pronunciations and meanings of certain characters differ in North Korea from those in South Korea. As far as I know, hanja aren't used at all anymore in North Korea, though presumably they still exist in North Korean dictionaries.
It would be very interesting if you could elaborate on the differences in usage between Chinese and Korean like you mentioned. I take it certain Chinese grammatical characters like 的 and 們 and the like are used completely differently in Korean, if in fact they're used at all, but how consistent are the pronunciations and meanings of character compounds borrowed from Chinese? I know 先生 is the equivalent of 선생, for example, and the pronunciation is essentially the same (allowing for differences in each language's respective phonetic systems).
To concretize the question a bit:
Would studying modern, written Chinese count as hanja study, or are there too many discrepancies between the Korean and Chinese usages? It's difficult to find sources indicating just how much of a transfer there is for someone with a good reading knowledge of traditional Chinese who takes on Korean. |
|
|
Yes, that's a very good way of putting the question.
1 person has voted this message useful
| Huliganov
Octoglot
Senior Member
Poland
huliganov.tvRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5356 days ago
91 posts - 304 votes
Speaks: English*, Polish, French, German, Russian, Spanish, Esperanto, Czech
Studies: Romanian, Turkish, Mandarin, Japanese, Hungarian
| Message 12 of 28 16 August 2010 at 5:47pm | IP Logged |
Jiwon wrote:
It's been ages since I visited this forum.. it's nice to come back on a Korean thread.. :)
1. What percentage of the population in South and North Korea have been educated to read and write Chinese characters?
- Well, can't say for North Korea, but EVERYONE in South Korea with primary education will know some Chinese characters.
2. What is the size of the "canon" of characters they learn? I heard conflicting accounts from 1500 to 1800.
- They do learn 1800, but not many retain all of them.
3. Does that mean they learn some Chinese with the signs, or just learn how to replace certain words from Hangul to Chinese signs?
- I don't know what exactly you are trying to get at here. They learn the form(shape) of the characters, its meaning in Korean and its sound in Korean.
4. Is it one sign, one reading, as in Mandarin, or is it that, as in Japanese, there are Sino-Korean readings and domestic readings which share the same sign?
- All characters usually have one reading, except very few that have two sounds, but you get that in Mandarin too.
5. Is it true that in the North the reading of some Chinese characters varies from thath given in South Korea? Does that mean in some cases the meaning ascribed in Korean vary from the Chinese meanings quite a bit?
- Don't know about the first question. I'm not sure what you are trying to ask in the second question. But I should say not all characters are used in the same way as they are Mandarin Chinese as Korean and Mandarin have very different grammatical structures.
6. What amount of prominence to the Chinese signs have in public life? Shop signs? street signs? billboard advertising? menues in restaurants?
- You get Hanja along with Hangul for some street signs and subway stations, but usage of Hanja in everyday life is nearly non-existent.
7. Can a European person knowing no Korean use a notebook and Chinese signs to make himself understood there among Korean people who don't speak European languages?
- I don't think so. Besides, even if the Korean person you meet knows a lot of Hanja, the sheer difference in grammar would hinder communication greatly.
8. Is there a web resource that I can go to that lists the canon of Korean used Chinese characters and their readings, meanings and frequencies?
- No idea.
9. What is the degree of loaning from Chinese to Korean, and are the loans more similar to Mandarin in Korean or in Japanese?
- you get this everywhere in Korean language. Chinese characters act like Latin and Greek word roots on which English is built on, in my opinion.
|
|
|
Many thanks, Jiwon. That equivalence of using Chinese as a source of "classical" roots also was how I thought about the Sino-Japanese stock in Japanese.
It's nice to know I kicked off a good thread for welcoming you back after a time away.
1 person has voted this message useful
| Huliganov
Octoglot
Senior Member
Poland
huliganov.tvRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5356 days ago
91 posts - 304 votes
Speaks: English*, Polish, French, German, Russian, Spanish, Esperanto, Czech
Studies: Romanian, Turkish, Mandarin, Japanese, Hungarian
| Message 13 of 28 16 August 2010 at 5:50pm | IP Logged |
Ichiro wrote:
As per the previous two contributors, someone will come along much better placed to answer than me. But for what it's worth -
<snip very good answers for the sake of brevity>
Anyway, as I now had a super resource that I wanted to turn into study lists I spent a fun week typing up the contents of the book into a big spreadsheet. And because I am superly fantastic and great, I have now posted it on the internet for you, if you wish it. You should be able to download it from the following site -
http://www.sendspace.com/file/3y4mey
http://www.sendspace.com/file/3y4mey
The list includes the character, the Sino-korean reading, a Korean word telling you what the character means, and the Kanji Knowledge test grade at which it first appears. Grades 4 and 3 are split into two groups identified in the list as 4.5 and 4, and 3.5. and 3. The .5 grades come first.
A word of caution - I typed the list in and cross-checked it myself. But I know there are still errors in it, not least because there are supposed to be 1,817 on the list and there's only 1,814. I've lost 3 from the second half of grade 3. But I hope you'll still find it useful.
|
|
|
That is tremendous - exactly what I needed. I will probably need Google Translator to help with the Korean part, but I'll definitely be able to use this for what I'm trying to do, it is perfect.
M A N Y T H A N K S
1 person has voted this message useful
| aerielle
Newbie
Korea, South
korea.calliston
Joined 5333 days ago
36 posts - 42 votes
Speaks: English*
Studies: Korean
| Message 14 of 28 16 August 2010 at 6:20pm | IP Logged |
Naver's hanja dictionary lists more than 5,700 hanja. They're organized by level here.
The lower the level, the more obscure the hanja.
Level 3 lists 1,817 (reading) hanja. This is probably the "canon" you're looking for.
http://hanja.naver.com/level
Edited by aerielle on 16 August 2010 at 6:21pm
1 person has voted this message useful
| Ichiro
Triglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 6210 days ago
111 posts - 152 votes
Speaks: English*, Japanese, French
Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, Korean, Malay
| Message 15 of 28 17 August 2010 at 1:49pm | IP Logged |
aerielle wrote:
Naver's hanja dictionary lists more than 5,700 hanja. They're organized by level here.
The lower the level, the more obscure the hanja.
Level 3 lists 1,817 (reading) hanja. This is probably the "canon" you're looking for.
http://hanja.naver.com/level |
|
|
Now, this is exactly what I couldn't find when I went looking for an online list last year.
1 person has voted this message useful
| Ichiro
Triglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 6210 days ago
111 posts - 152 votes
Speaks: English*, Japanese, French
Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, Korean, Malay
| Message 16 of 28 17 August 2010 at 1:55pm | IP Logged |
No problem! Consider it an inadequate return for the pleasure brought me by your Remembering the Romaji.
I see Japanese is one of the languages you study. Would it be helpful if I reposted the list with the Kun-yomi for each character, where it has one? There may be false friends in there, but if you know what it means to the Japanese, maybe it will help you read what it means to the Koreans.
I can also add in the On-yomi and for that matter the Mandarin reading if you are interested.
1 person has voted this message useful
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum
This page was generated in 0.3438 seconds.
DHTML Menu By Milonic JavaScript
|
Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages
Printable version
