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Language competence | ||
Tags: CEFR Language Levels | Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6444 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes  Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 17 of 80 02 October 2010 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
I'd consider it a necessary condition, not a sufficient one. It's possible to be mistaken for a native when you're well short of native fluency, especially when fairly little language use is involved. I've been mistaken for a native German speaker before - but never once I've said anything in German! If you're never getting mistaken for a native speaker, though, you're fairly clearly not at native fluency (with some obvious caveats about languages with only a few hundred native speakers or less who all know each other, etc). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| kidshomestunner Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6410 days ago 239 posts - 285 votes Speaks: Japanese | Message 18 of 80 02 October 2010 at 9:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
But stuff life fashion sense, paralinguistic features and aizuchi would very, very very often give you away. These are outside of verbal language: You could be fluent in the language yet not be mistaken for a native speaker. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5453 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 19 of 80 02 October 2010 at 11:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
what about conversation on a phone or voice-chat? that would be a good test for 'native fluency'. if native speaker is convinced you are a native too, then you could call your level 'native fluency'. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| reineke Senior Member United States https://learnalangua Joined 6452 days ago 851 posts - 1008 votes Studies: German | Message 20 of 80 03 October 2010 at 12:14am | IP Logged | |||||
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fear of telephone conversations
Fluency (also called volubility and loquaciousness) is the property of a person or of a system that delivers information quickly and with expertise. Language fluency is used informally to denote broadly a high level of language proficiency, most typically foreign language or another learned language, and more narrowly to denote fluid language use, as opposed to slow, halting use. In this narrow sense, fluency is necessary but not sufficient for language proficiency: fluent language users (particularly uneducated native speakers) may have narrow vocabularies, limited discourse strategies, and inaccurate word use. They may be illiterate, as well. Native language speakers are often incorrectly referred to as fluent. Language proficiency or linguistic proficiency is the ability of an individual to speak or perform in an acquired language. As theories vary among pedagogues as to what constitutes proficiency,[1] there is little consistency as to how different organizations classify it. Additionally, fluency and language competence are generally recognized as being related, but separate controversial subjects. In predominant frameworks in the United States, proficient speakers demonstrate both accuracy and fluency, and use a variety of discourse strategies.[2] Thus, a high number of native speakers of a language can be fluent without being considered proficient. Wikipedia 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Old Chemist Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5178 days ago 227 posts - 285 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German | Message 21 of 80 03 October 2010 at 11:53am | IP Logged | |||||
Perhaps a useful working definition of fluency would be being treated as "one of the natives" to all intents and purposes and not having native speakers slow down for you or resort to simplified explanations or "baby talk" This would be fairly difficult to achieve for all situations. As for being taken for a native, leave aside alien body language, we cannot change how we look, so a caucasian will not be able to pass for a native in Japan or anywhere with few Europeans in the "native mix" 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6708 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 22 of 80 03 October 2010 at 2:25pm | IP Logged | |||||
That would actually be a variation of the socalled Turing test 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| H.Computatralis Triglot Senior Member Poland Joined 6309 days ago 130 posts - 210 votes Speaks: Polish*, French, English Studies: German, Spanish, Latin | Message 23 of 80 03 October 2010 at 4:29pm | IP Logged | |||||
Well, the Turing test is about evaluating the intelligence of the speaker rather than the linguistic abilities. Granted, a computer which could pass the Turing test would probably also be able to communicate fluently in some natural language, but the two are not necessarily linked. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5453 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 24 of 80 03 October 2010 at 9:29pm | IP Logged | |||||
I think we are mixing things up now - my post was only about 'native fluency', not fluency itself. There are people out there who are trying to get their accents close to perfection, make only 'native mistakes', use idioms like natives do, etc. It was then argued on this topic that, because of the way people look, they could never pass for a native in certain languages, so passing for a native shouldn't be a criterion for 'native fluency'. So I just asked what about the voice chat? Yes, it is a sort of a Turing test (but just a sort of, since we are not testing intelligence, only a language ability). Fluency is one thing while 'native fluency' is a completely different topic. For me personally, it's not worth the effort - the time needed to get from some C level to native fluency is pretty much enough to learn another language. But some people have 'native fluency' for their goal and I think it should be acknowledged if their reach it. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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