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Non-Mandarin Chinese - more monosyllabic? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| lingoleng Senior Member Germany Joined 5299 days ago 605 posts - 1290 votes  | Message 17 of 27 12 January 2011 at 5:49pm | IP Logged | ||
In the Indo-European languages a case system has been in place for some nobody knows how many years, but nobody uses this as an argument to explain the modern case system of English. Diachrony gives us insight into the genetics of a system, of course, but its synchronic explanatory power is limited. Or do you actually claim that the Cantonese tonal system has not changed since it become necessary because of some sound changes about 1500 years ago? Has it been a homogeneous uniform system through the times everywhere it was spoken? Would surprise me ... Edited by lingoleng on 12 January 2011 at 5:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| edwin Triglot Senior Member Canada towerofconfusi&Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6465 days ago 160 posts - 183 votes 9 sounds Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French, Spanish, Portuguese | Message 18 of 27 12 January 2011 at 6:09pm | IP Logged | ||
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Simply put it, the old system has 9 tones. All newer ones have only 6.
The old system is still being used and studied (by linguists, who else?) because of its importance in classical Cantonese music, in which the 7th, 8th, and 9th tones play very important roles. As for language learners, stick with the 6-tone systems, such as Jyutping from the Linguistic Society of Hong Kong: http://www.lshk.org/cantonese.php Hope this settles the debate. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| OneEye Diglot Senior Member Japan Joined 6851 days ago 518 posts - 784 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: Japanese, Taiwanese, German, French | Message 19 of 27 12 January 2011 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | ||
That is irrelevant. The fact is, linguists do still refer to the Middle Chinese tone system because it has remained largely intact, though changes have been made (and indeed can be traced). Tones in modern Chinese languages are described in terms of how they have merged or split Middle Chinese tone categories. For example, Mandarin (whose tonal system has deviated from Middle Chinese the most) tones can be explained thus: Middle Chinese tone - Mandarin tone 陰平 - 1 陽平 - 2 陰上 - 3/4 陽上 - 3/4 陰去 - 4 陽去 - 4 陰入 - 1/2/3/4 陽入 - 2/4 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| lingoleng Senior Member Germany Joined 5299 days ago 605 posts - 1290 votes | Message 20 of 27 12 January 2011 at 7:21pm | IP Logged | ||
Yes, well done, this is the diachronic dimension. I had mentioned that such genetic analysis can be done. You would not run around yelling that Mandarin has 8 tones, based on this wonderful evidence, or would you? Edited by lingoleng on 12 January 2011 at 7:23pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| OneEye Diglot Senior Member Japan Joined 6851 days ago 518 posts - 784 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: Japanese, Taiwanese, German, French | Message 21 of 27 12 January 2011 at 8:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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Obviously not. I've already spelled out in this thread the 9 tones of Cantonese and how they descend from Middle Chinese. Now I've shown the same for the 4 tones of Mandarin. Both tonal systems are described in terms of their relation to Middle Chinese, as are those of all Chinese languages.
Don't confuse tone with pitch or contour. The three entering tones are treated separately in Chinese linguistics, though their pitches and contours match three of the other tones (namely, 1, 3 and 6 in the Yale and Jyutping systems), precisely because they are clipped. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| edwin Triglot Senior Member Canada towerofconfusi&Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6465 days ago 160 posts - 183 votes 9 sounds Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French, Spanish, Portuguese | Message 22 of 27 12 January 2011 at 8:49pm | IP Logged | ||
Speaking as a native speaker, and also based on my experience with other native speakers, the Cantonese Joe probably cannot tell you what the 9 tones are. And yet they pronounce them perfectly. It is funny when you think about it. We build all these linguistic constructs to help ourselves to speak with the natives, who don't really know what we are talking about. Edited by edwin on 12 January 2011 at 8:50pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| lingoleng Senior Member Germany Joined 5299 days ago 605 posts - 1290 votes | Message 23 of 27 12 January 2011 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | ||
Ok, last try: My objection was actually extremely trivial and simple, I don't see how it could be ignored. The fact that Chinese tradition makes some claims based on 1500 old evidence may have led to an a priori assumption of nine tones, and some people won't get away from this scheme no matter what modern evidence suggests. Are there nine tones or five? I don't know and don't comment on this, but whatever system one proposes will have to be based on modern usage, on actual phonemic distinctions, not on tradition. It is so easy that I am sure you will disagree, but I won't comment any further. Edited by lingoleng on 12 January 2011 at 8:52pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| OneEye Diglot Senior Member Japan Joined 6851 days ago 518 posts - 784 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: Japanese, Taiwanese, German, French | Message 24 of 27 13 January 2011 at 5:27am | IP Logged | ||
No reason to get snarky and personal. I do agree with you here. I (mistakenly) assumed you were also arguing that Cantonese has 6 tones. I should have read more closely. But let me rephrase my point for the sake of clarity: Modern Chinese linguistics, when looking at modern Cantonese, describes 9 tones (6 open, and 3 stopped). Historical linguists trace these tones back to their Middle Chinese origin. Now, some linguists would not classify the three stopped (clipped, entering, 入) tones separately because their contours and pitch are similar to three of the open tones. But Chinese linguistics handles these separately precisely because they are clipped (they consider both pitch/contour and length), and treats them as a different category (open vs. clipped). It's not entirely because of tradition, but that is a part of it. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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