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Why is Hindi missing from internet ? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| lerner Groupie Germany Joined 5819 days ago 51 posts - 79 votes  Speaks: Hindi* Studies: EnglishC2, GermanC1, Spanish, Dutch | Message 25 of 39 26 January 2011 at 7:24pm | IP Logged | ||
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It's rather amusing reading the claims being made by posters here on how the Indian middle class has practically shunned Hindi. I'd just like to know how many of you actually belong to the Indian middle class or have spent a sizable amount of time with people belonging to the Indian middle class.
I would like to think that there is actually a growing awareness of the importance of English for one's career. Which makes people "study" English. Since business in India is conducted in English for the most part and given that one most probably will have team members coming from different parts, it might make sense to use English as a means of communication. This has led to English words creeping into daily usage, but I wouldn't view that as a threat to Hindi. I mean even if one were to speak the Hindi word for Computer (yes, there is one), it would sound rather odd and fabricated. That being said, it does not in any way mean that people have switched to English. I would be hard put to recall any conversation I've had with my parents, friends, colleagues (not having another native language) or other family members where I used English as the main language. Sure, all my words didn't have their roots in Hindi or Urdu. But I'd view that as rather normal. For quite a while before independence, we did have Moguls and the Britsh ruling us. I guess their occupation would leave an indelible impression on the way of life as everywhere else. Why that is viewed by some people as a threat to Hindi is something I fail to understand. What really impedes the growth of Hindi beyond the hindi speaking area is that hindi speaking region is home to quite a large number of (rather) poor people. And I think that is reflected in the absence of Hindi from the internet. Moreoever, the Hindi speaking areas are heavily fragmented along caste and class lines, especially the poorer regions. So, I don't really see the situation changing anytime soon. However, I don't really think that the existence of Hindi itself is threatened in any way. Some changes however are quite apparent, for example the Hindu-arabic number system being used almost everywhere instead of their purely Hindi counterparts, to the extent that most people now can't recognise the Hindi numerals. But then again, I would view that as a normal development. And the Hindu-arabic number system does have it's origins in India. This is probably the only instance of somethin in Hindi being completely replaced by another system. A note on Urdu : the usage has been on the decline for quite a while now. In fact, I asked one of my friends, who happens to be a muslim, to write down digits from 1 to 10 in Urdu. He couldn't. (I'm sure even I would have to think a bit to write down the hindi numerals) Another example, my grandfather can speak urdu fluently, my dad and I can't. I guess the partition of British India into India and Pakistan really rang the death knell for Urdu in India. Though still viewed as "sweet", the usage is restricted to a few circles. Edited by lerner on 26 January 2011 at 7:32pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| stephen_g Groupie Canada Joined 6330 days ago 44 posts - 84 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Italian | Message 26 of 39 26 January 2011 at 7:27pm | IP Logged | ||
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1) Rupert Snell's Teach Yourself Hindi Not the most academic of books, but I do think it is one of the better volumes available in the Teach Yourself series. It offers a solid introduction to Hindi in manageable chunks. You can supplement this with other works by Snell, if necessary; Teach Yourself Beginner's Hindi Script may be useful for those struggling with this problem, and the more slowly-paced Teach Yourself Beginner's Hindi may be more appropriate, for some. Snell's books provide a nicer, gentler introduction to the language for the independent student, yet the main book in the series doesn't compromise on quality. 2) Usha Jain's Series: Introduction to Hindi Grammar, Intermediate Hindi Reader and Advanced Hindi Grammar A wonderful set which is used in classrooms across North America. Wonderful drills for pounding away at Hindi grammar, but no answer key. I didn't find the lack of an answer key to really be an issue... The structures are straightforward. The drills just help you with memorising Hindi's structure. The intermediate reader is a nice introduction into reading the language, ending with a story by modern Hindi's most famous writer, Premchand. A CD exists for the reader but I haven't been able to get my hands on a copy. 3) Peter Hook's Hindi Structures The best step to take after completing Usha Jain's stuff. Hindi's only true textbook of subtle intermediate-level grammar. Drills and answer key provided. 4) Ruth Laila Schmidt's Urdu: An Essential Grammar Yes, I'm recommending an Urdu grammar for the study of Hindi. This is, in my opinion, the most useful reference work available for Hindi grammar. The differences between Hindi and Urdu are minor and this work can be used effectively by someone who already has a background in the works I've mentioned above. You can crosscheck it against other Hindi grammars if you're unsure about certain points, but you'll find that this is the most thorough and well-organised available. 5) R.S. McGregor's Oxford Hindi-English Dictionary Quite possibly the most satisfying dictionary I've ever had the pleasure of using. Blows its competition completely out of the water. I've not yet encountered another modern dictionary of an Indian language which can come close to comparing to this work. The version I've linked to above is the most recent edition, published in 2010. I haven't had the chance to compare this to the earlier edition, published in 1997. You can buy the older edition for less, if you wish. This dictionary deserves nothing less than five stars, and those who have awarded it less have not justified their doing so. Trust me, you'll never look at a dictionary for an Indic language the same way again after using this. 6) Rupert Snell and Christopher Shackle's Hindi and Urdu Since 1800: A Common Reader Excellent reader of both Hindi and Urdu, using materials dating back to the early 19th century. It doesn't teach the scripts, so the Urdu section will be useless for anyone who hasn't worked on its script previously. The first half of the book traces the development of both languages, including four useful sections on Hindi-Urdu's Sanskritic, Persian, Arabic and English components, respectively. It doesn't seem to be in print, but is available in the right places. --- The above materials will give you a solid grounding in Hindi, though you should try and engage with some multimedia-based websites online in order to develop your oral skills and listening comprehension, as only Snell's material comes with audio. You should be able to comfortably jump into native materials from this point forward; Hindi isn't a terribly complicated language. Edited by stephen_g on 26 January 2011 at 7:45pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| noyb2008 Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5055 days ago 9 posts - 14 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Russian, Punjabi | Message 27 of 39 26 January 2011 at 8:11pm | IP Logged | ||
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Move along folks, nothing to see here. Edited by noyb2008 on 28 January 2011 at 3:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| anothername Triglot Groupie Brazil Joined 5062 days ago 96 posts - 195 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Spanish, English | Message 28 of 39 26 January 2011 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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@noyb2008, I'm not a woman neither a politician, and I could also refute your "straw man argument" observation, pointing that you were the one who was backing off at some moments, but I believe this kind of thing would not contribute to the thread.
But perhaps I may sound a bit infatuated when I strongly disagree with somebody. So, if you believe I misunderstood some of your posts, I apologize. You certainly have a lot to contribute to any discussion on indian languages. @lerner, I believe this paragraph - "What really impedes the growth of Hindi beyond the hindi speaking area is that hindi speaking region is home to quite a large number of (rather) poor people. And I think that is reflected in the absence of Hindi from the internet. Moreoever, the Hindi speaking areas are heavily fragmented along caste and class lines, especially the poorer regions. So, I don't really see the situation changing anytime soon. However, I don't really think that the existence of Hindi itself is threatened in any way." - is very well put. @stephen-g, thank you very much for your list. I was already considering to get the Usha Jain's series, but I currently own only the Teach Yourself, Assimil, Linguaphone and Living Language materials (focusing more on the Living Language right now, because it has more audio), plus the Outline of Hindi Grammar by McGregor. I would be glad to know your opinions on those I mentioned as well, if possible. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| stephen_g Groupie Canada Joined 6330 days ago 44 posts - 84 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Italian | Message 29 of 39 26 January 2011 at 9:57pm | IP Logged | ||
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Noyb, there's definitely hope for Punjabi. Prejudices still exist, but Punjabi has made
great strides in securing a more refined, sophisticated image for itself amongst the intelligentsia and middle classes in Punjab. There's much work to be done and much ground to be covered, but one should be optimistic. Punjabi University, Patiala is one of Punjab's top three universities (the other two being Guru Nanak Dev University, Amritsar and Panjab University, Chandigarh). It was founded on the premise of being an institute which promotes the language. The amount of material they produce is astounding, and it's truly a shame that they don't have agreements with distributors to make their material more widely available. To illustrate my point, I'll list the dictionaries I own, published by the university itself: Punjabi Punjabi-English English-Punjabi Lahindi (Western Punjabi, from Pakistan) Malwai (dialect of the Malwa region of Indian Punjab) Perso-Arabic Loanwords (Gives source language, original meaning, Punjabi meaning, explanatory notes) While these materials aren't necessarily up to the extremely high standard of the Oxford Hindi-English dictionary, they're leagues ahead of most language material published in India. The university prints books in all fields of study, from sociology to science to literature. It may not be world class material, but students are taking courses which exclusively make use of Punjabi textbooks. They're also attending cultural shows hosted by the university on a regular basis which focus on traditional Punjabi culture, alongside visiting cultural museums. They're watching plays, memorizing poetry, watching television programs, reading international news, reading Russian literature and having Marxist debates... in Punjabi. I meet many well educated Punjabis who have no communicative ability in English whatsoever. Also, one should note that the Punjabi appetite for literature is much closer to that of Urdu speakers than Hindi speakers! Perhaps most reassuring of all is the fact that using English carries a stigma amongst sections of the Punjabi population, as does using Hindi. Those Punjabis who use English amongst themselves are mockingly called Englishmen, while those who use Hindi may be called effeminate. This is obviously unfair, but it goes to show that Punjabi is by no means a language at risk. Let's just hope parents stop sending their children to low quality English medium schools that leave them without the ability to articulate themselves well in either language. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| noyb2008 Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5055 days ago 9 posts - 14 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Russian, Punjabi | Message 30 of 39 26 January 2011 at 10:13pm | IP Logged | ||
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Move along folks, nothing to see here. Edited by noyb2008 on 28 January 2011 at 3:54pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| lerner Groupie Germany Joined 5819 days ago 51 posts - 79 votes Speaks: Hindi* Studies: EnglishC2, GermanC1, Spanish, Dutch | Message 31 of 39 26 January 2011 at 11:21pm | IP Logged | ||
Now I assume that since these people are poor, they wouldn't exactly have access to internet. For a website designer, this would mean a rather limited readership. That, coupled with the fact that these Hindi speakers coming from a poor background would hardly possess basic reading skills due to a lack of formal education, would mean that my website gets a really low number of hits (even when some of these people did have access to the internet". Lower hits would lead to lower revenues. I hope I haven't stated anything illogical so far. Please correct me if I have. The link you mentioned doesn't list the profile of internet user in India according to their native language. I fail to see how any logical conclusion can be drawn from that data. For all I know, 75% of those people could be from the southern and western parts of India where Hindi is not spoken as a native language. And from your previous posts noyb2008 (amazingly all your posts since you joined have been on this topic), I gather that you entertain some sort of a dislike for India. But for the sake of a meaningful discussion, could we please stick to facts. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| noyb2008 Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5055 days ago 9 posts - 14 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Russian, Punjabi | Message 32 of 39 27 January 2011 at 1:11am | IP Logged | ||
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Move along folks, nothing to see here. Edited by noyb2008 on 28 January 2011 at 3:54pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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