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Why is Hindi missing from internet ? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| anothername Triglot Groupie Brazil Joined 5062 days ago 96 posts - 195 votes  Speaks: Portuguese*, Spanish, English | Message 33 of 39 27 January 2011 at 1:50am | IP Logged | ||
Now I'm really sorry, my friend, but I just can't resist. This is EXACTLY what you seemed to me when you posted this text: "I've given up on learning Hindi, something I did years ago. There's no point any more as far as I'm concerned. Unless you are learning a language purely for fun or academic purposes, why waste your time on something of questionable utility?" You just wrote it some posts ago. Isn't that a huge contradiction? Especially considering you are indian, studied HINDI (!) literature, etc.? As far as I'm concerned, hindi is by far the most important language of India, rivalled only by bengali. When you are textually saying that you gave up hindi because it's a waste of time to work on something on "questionable utility", aren't you just denying your own language and your own culture? IMO, if someone is proud of its country national language, he doesn't consider learning it a waste of time, or useless from a pragmatic point of view, but as the most precious cultural heritage of his people. I would perfectly understand if most of my indian friends said to me that don't learn hindi because they prefer punjabi/bengali/marathi/telugu/etc., but their pattern of answer is that is just more useful to learn English. That upsets me. It's like selling your soul, and for cheap. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| noyb2008 Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5055 days ago 9 posts - 14 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Russian, Punjabi | Message 34 of 39 27 January 2011 at 10:53am | IP Logged | ||
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Move along folks, nothing to see here. Edited by noyb2008 on 28 January 2011 at 3:55pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| stephen_g Groupie Canada Joined 6330 days ago 44 posts - 84 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Italian | Message 35 of 39 27 January 2011 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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You're both being way too harsh on Noyb for stating a valid opinion, even if we
personally disagree. Anyone who studies Hindi and then comes to spend time in India feels quite frustrated by the current position of the language. He specifically made the original point that one should learn Hindi for the purpose of academics or entertainment, but not otherwise. Perhaps we can put together a more honest list. So, why learn Hindi? You can.. 1) Understand Bollywood movies and other media of entertainment 2) Read Hindi Literature 3) Get better insight into Indian society (whether for academic purposes or otherwise) 4) Deepen your friendships with Hindi speakers with whom you interact in English 5) Work with the underprivileged in North India 6) Better communicate with millions whose command of English is still shaky 7) Obtain an excellent tool for the study of Hinduism 8) Experience how foreigners who speak Hindi well are treated very, very nicely 9) Learn India's national language, which is studied across most of the country (to varying levels of success) 10) Secure certain jobs if you're an Indian citizen Why stay away? 1) Low chic factor amongst the middle classes, despite its widespread use 2) General apathy amongst the populace towards their own literature 3) Association of polished Hindi with Hindu nationalism 4) Virtually no economic utility 5) Entertainment material isn't of the highest quality, though this is a matter of taste 6) Most speakers are uneducated and poor 7) Non-fiction often of very low quality compared to what is available in other languages -- One can elaborate extensively on each of the above points, but I think the lists are a decent summary of Hindi's pros and cons. Would anyone care to contribute? 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| anothername Triglot Groupie Brazil Joined 5062 days ago 96 posts - 195 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Spanish, English | Message 36 of 39 27 January 2011 at 2:37pm | IP Logged | ||
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Perhaps you are correct, Stephen-G, but he is the only one who is exposing his personal life experiences as if they were credentials to understand the topic.
In an earlier post, he said, answering to another poster: "I entertain some dislike for India? I can't see where I wrote that. I'm of Indian ethnic origin. I studied Hindi Literature at university. I married an Indian. My spiritual proclivities are inclined towards India. I'll tell you what sort of dislike I do entertain though, so you won't have to do any more gathering. It's Indians who deny their own language and their own culture. That should make things clearer." Then, after putting himself as a personal with strong links to India, he backs off and totally relativizes his relationship with India again:
It was already super clear that punjabi is his mother language and that he is not an indian citizen. But it was NOT clear that he was talking about people who “deny their own mother tongue”. On the contrary, he didn't use the expression “mother tongue” before: he textually said he dislike “Indians who deny their own language and their own culture”, and that is totally different, because hindi is also, from many standards, indians's own language. And this is after he accused me of using "straw man" arguments and "being a woman or a politician"... Let me make clear that none of my posts are directed to him personally. I'm trying to discuss the topic, but the point is that all his comments are densely intersected with his own experiences, in a way that sounds contradictory to me (well, not only for me). It's a bit annoying, because I really DON'T want to discuss him, but what he says. But every criticism may sound like we are criticizing him. I think he made it a bit clearer now. He has indian background (punjabi actually, which could be also pakistani), but he doesn't consider himself an indian. So, he is not an indian, case closed. So, as Lerner said, let's turn this page and stick to the facts: we are talking about people who have very limited access to internet. The vast majority of the hindi belt population lives in poverty, and it has to do with class/caste divisions. Considering that, we must admit that we are talking about an economical/sociological issue that goes far beyond the speculations made in this topic so far, what means, the fact that a lot of people learn English and think hindi is not fancy is not that important. Much more valid is to make clear that we are talking about a non-developed region, that has much bigger problems to solve before beginning to propagate hindi on the internet, or deciding if they prefer hindi to English. During the cold war, it was a well-spread belief that Spanish was an endangered language in latin america, because it was submitted to USA power, and everyone would learn English in the end, major contracts were in English, and so on. There were even theories in the western world in the sense that japanese would dominate the far east, gradually, due to chinese poverty and the increase of japanese economic power. Languages like ukrainian, latvian, uzbek, etc., were all considered as "close to death" in USSR time. None of those myths become true, obviously. Those were just empty speculations. I believe Lerner is right also when he says hindi is not endangered, in spite of its sparing use in current internet. Statistic data is to be taken with a big grain of salt, the world changes fast, and we have absolutely no idea on how it will/would be if/when the access to internet in the hindi speaking region becomes a reality. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| stephen_g Groupie Canada Joined 6330 days ago 44 posts - 84 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Italian | Message 37 of 39 27 January 2011 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | ||
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Fair enough, but two points to address, here...
1) Try telling a Tamil that Hindi is his own language! The idea that Noyb's reference to Indians denying their own language refers to Hindi betrays a bias on your own part, I'm afraid. While there are certainly Indians who continue to champion Hindi as being India's true national tongue, there are many Indians living in different linguistic regions who will forever oppose this perspective and prefer to use English, instead. Opposing Hindi has nothing to do with being less 'Indian'. In his case, he acknowledges that he's a Brit, but considering his heritage and life experiences, argues that accusing him of having an anti-India bias is ludicrous. I'm inclined to agree. 2) The fact that a lot of people learn English and are indifferent about Hindi is not unimportant. The question is why the share of Hindi speakers with access to the internet are not living up to the activity relative to numbers as present amongst other linguistic groups. The answer is certainly that a large chunk of urban Hindi speakers currently with internet access make use of English when it comes to anything more than informal chats with family and friends. This will change in the future as the internet reaches deeper into the population. It'll really take off if Hindi speakers change their attitude towards their own mother tongue. Hopefully the quality here is an example of what's to come: http://www.bbc.co.uk/hindi/ 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| anothername Triglot Groupie Brazil Joined 5062 days ago 96 posts - 195 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Spanish, English | Message 38 of 39 27 January 2011 at 5:42pm | IP Logged | ||
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Stephen, I agree that hindi as the national language is not an absolute belief among indians, and I thing it's perfecty acceptable when that reticence is accompanied of regional proud (or subnationalism, as indians call it). What I find very strange is when, instead of punjabi/bengali/tamil/etc., they let hindi aside to promote English as a national tongue.
If a national tongue is needed, why not to choose the most spoken language of the country, instead of keeping the colonial mentality? Tamils may complain about hindi opressors, but we know that until recently India was british territory, and Gandhi's - a gujarati - major intention when promoting hindi as a national language was certainly not to opress tamils (or at least not in the same way UK did). You are correct that it could be a bias from my part, and I'm aware of it since I read this topic. I live in a country much larger than India, with a smaller population but still considerably big, with amazing ethnic diversity (portuguese, Spanish, Italians, Germans, japanese, chinese, indians, russians, polish, africans of yoruba, hausa, etc. descent, lebanese, indian, and so on), yet everybody is proud of speaking brazilian portuguese as their mother tongue, in almost every little town of brazilian territory. A linguistic unity that is probably unrivaled among great countries. So, I consider my potential bias more positive than negative, as I see the benefits of having a national language. Brazilian economy is doing well, the vast majority of the population doesn't speak English or any other language besides portuguese, and doesn't even feel the utilitarian need to do it. Also, those internet statistics show how brazilian portuguese is everywhere. Of course Brazil is far from perfect, but at least we realize the importance of a strong national language. Also, I'm not really sure if a brit with indian heritage (or even an indian-born) is absolutely immune to anti-India feelings (it's even said that some ex-colonized countries have a bit of a self-deprecative nature), but that could be another topic. Finally, I agree that the fact that a lot of people learn English and are indifferent about Hindi is not unimportant, but I believe the economic factor - or, better saying, the social and economical differences inside India - is prevalent. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| noyb2008 Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5055 days ago 9 posts - 14 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Russian, Punjabi | Message 39 of 39 27 January 2011 at 6:20pm | IP Logged | ||
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Move along folks, nothing to see here. Edited by noyb2008 on 28 January 2011 at 3:56pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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