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Does international language work?

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Cainntear
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Scotland
linguafrankly.blogsp
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4399 posts - 7687 votes 
Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic
Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh

 
 Message 25 of 91
14 January 2010 at 9:25pm | IP Logged 
canada38 wrote:
Many even claim that a knowledge of Esperanto will help one to learn other languages.

There is an axiom held as true by most language learners:
Learning a third language is easier than learning a second language.

So it follows that learning another language after Esperanto is easier than learning that same language without having studied any other language. Esperanto is nothing special in that respect.

The reason Esperanto gets special note is that its structure is comparatively simple and regular, making it quicker to learn. The point of dispute is not whether Esperanto makes learning another language easier, it's whether the time taken to learn Esperanto is greater or less than the amount of time it takes to subsequently learn the genuine target language. If spending 1 year learning Esperanto takes 1 year off your time to learn (for example) French, you arguably gain nothing. If it only takes 6 months off, you "lose" half a year. On the other hand, if it takes 18 months off, you gain half a year.

But again, this is nothing special to Esperanto -- there are other conlangs which are said to be even easier and quicker to learn.

Furthermore, this is talking about absolute beginners -- is there any benefit for someone who is already at an advanced level in another language? I'm not convinced. Armbands may help kids learn to swim, but Ian Thorpe won't become a better swimmer if he starts wearing them....
2 persons have voted this message useful



datsunking1
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5590 days ago

1014 posts - 1533 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French

 
 Message 26 of 91
14 January 2010 at 10:36pm | IP Logged 
Cainntear wrote:
canada38 wrote:
Many even claim that a knowledge of Esperanto will help one to learn other languages.

There is an axiom held as true by most language learners:
Learning a third language is easier than learning a second language.

So it follows that learning another language after Esperanto is easier than learning that same language without having studied any other language. Esperanto is nothing special in that respect.

The reason Esperanto gets special note is that its structure is comparatively simple and regular, making it quicker to learn. The point of dispute is not whether Esperanto makes learning another language easier, it's whether the time taken to learn Esperanto is greater or less than the amount of time it takes to subsequently learn the genuine target language. If spending 1 year learning Esperanto takes 1 year off your time to learn (for example) French, you arguably gain nothing. If it only takes 6 months off, you "lose" half a year. On the other hand, if it takes 18 months off, you gain half a year.

But again, this is nothing special to Esperanto -- there are other conlangs which are said to be even easier and quicker to learn.

Furthermore, this is talking about absolute beginners -- is there any benefit for someone who is already at an advanced level in another language? I'm not convinced. Armbands may help kids learn to swim, but Ian Thorpe won't become a better swimmer if he starts wearing them....

Well said Cainntear.

As far as I'm concerned, Esperanto might be another notch in my language belt :D
1 person has voted this message useful



canada38
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5500 days ago

304 posts - 417 votes 
Speaks: English*, Italian, Spanish, French
Studies: Portuguese, Japanese

 
 Message 27 of 91
14 January 2010 at 11:29pm | IP Logged 
Cainntear wrote:
canada38 wrote:
Many even claim that a knowledge of Esperanto will
help one to learn other languages.

There is an axiom held as true by most language learners:
Learning a third language is easier than learning a second language.

So it follows that learning another language after Esperanto is easier than learning
that same language without having studied any other language. Esperanto is nothing
special in that respect.

The reason Esperanto gets special note is that its structure is comparatively simple
and regular, making it quicker to learn. The point of dispute is not whether Esperanto
makes learning another language easier, it's whether the time taken to learn Esperanto
is greater or less than the amount of time it takes to subsequently learn the genuine
target language. If spending 1 year learning Esperanto takes 1 year off your time to
learn (for example) French, you arguably gain nothing. If it only takes 6 months off,
you "lose" half a year. On the other hand, if it takes 18 months off, you gain half a
year.

But again, this is nothing special to Esperanto -- there are other conlangs which are
said to be even easier and quicker to learn.

Furthermore, this is talking about absolute beginners -- is there any benefit for
someone who is already at an advanced level in another language? I'm not convinced.
Armbands may help kids learn to swim, but Ian Thorpe won't become a better swimmer if
he starts wearing them....


Thank-you for elaborating, that is exactly what I was thinking, but I gave a very vague
post.

Your last question is quite intriguing. I agree with your opinion that Esperanto likely
won't help a seasoned language learner to study a new language, and it will only be of
benefit to perhaps a beginner learning a third language after Esperanto. One exception
is that I'm certain studying Esperanto would aide a native Japanese speaker in a later
study of most several European tongues, but in this regard Esperanto is not unique. I
likely does not teach the workings of a language nor the fundamentals of European
languages better than most other languages of the same group do.

Does anyone here know more about if Esperanto is beneficial to the polyglot who wants
to study many languages? (Except for the fact that Esperanto itself adds one more
language to your collection!)
2 persons have voted this message useful



datsunking1
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5590 days ago

1014 posts - 1533 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French

 
 Message 28 of 91
15 January 2010 at 2:25am | IP Logged 
canada38 wrote:
Cainntear wrote:
canada38 wrote:
Many even claim that a knowledge of Esperanto will
help one to learn other languages.

There is an axiom held as true by most language learners:
Learning a third language is easier than learning a second language.

So it follows that learning another language after Esperanto is easier than learning
that same language without having studied any other language. Esperanto is nothing
special in that respect.

The reason Esperanto gets special note is that its structure is comparatively simple
and regular, making it quicker to learn. The point of dispute is not whether Esperanto
makes learning another language easier, it's whether the time taken to learn Esperanto
is greater or less than the amount of time it takes to subsequently learn the genuine
target language. If spending 1 year learning Esperanto takes 1 year off your time to
learn (for example) French, you arguably gain nothing. If it only takes 6 months off,
you "lose" half a year. On the other hand, if it takes 18 months off, you gain half a
year.

But again, this is nothing special to Esperanto -- there are other conlangs which are
said to be even easier and quicker to learn.

Furthermore, this is talking about absolute beginners -- is there any benefit for
someone who is already at an advanced level in another language? I'm not convinced.
Armbands may help kids learn to swim, but Ian Thorpe won't become a better swimmer if
he starts wearing them....


Thank-you for elaborating, that is exactly what I was thinking, but I gave a very vague
post.

Your last question is quite intriguing. I agree with your opinion that Esperanto likely
won't help a seasoned language learner to study a new language, and it will only be of
benefit to perhaps a beginner learning a third language after Esperanto. One exception
is that I'm certain studying Esperanto would aide a native Japanese speaker in a later
study of most several European tongues, but in this regard Esperanto is not unique. I
likely does not teach the workings of a language nor the fundamentals of European
languages better than most other languages of the same group do.

Does anyone here know more about if Esperanto is beneficial to the polyglot who wants
to study many languages? (Except for the fact that Esperanto itself adds one more
language to your collection!)


Would it be beneficial? Why not? As you and I have both said, it's another one to "add to the collection." I'm not sure if I can PROVE if it would be beneficial, but as far as I'm concerned, if I learned to speak esperanto fluently in around a year, I would be VERY pleased with myself and I would be very excited to tackle another language. I would feel much more ambitious and ready to take on the world. (Of languages that is ;)) I mean the language is rather simple, but being able to converse freely in such a short amount of time studying would really get me excited and spike a fire in me, so to speak.

All in All, it certainly CAN'T hurt in my opinion :)

-Jordan
2 persons have voted this message useful



zooplah
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
zooplah.farvista.net
Joined 6373 days ago

100 posts - 116 votes 
Speaks: English*, Esperanto
Studies: German

 
 Message 29 of 91
21 January 2010 at 12:02am | IP Logged 
datsunking1 wrote:
Languages such as Ido, Interlingua, and Esperanto have a promising and great idea behind them, but why haven't they "caught on" so to speak?

Ido was just Esperanto made closer to French (and thus not Esperanto anymore). Interlingua was never designed as an international language; it was just made for passive reading by people who already knew a Romance language. That really only leaves Esperanto. Actually, many blame the relative failure on the Ido schism; it was going fairly well before that, with Volapük, then Idiom Neutral, and finally, Esperanto, which has retained the largest user base of any conlang.

datsunking1 wrote:
P.S. A friend from Rio De Janeiro told me that Esperanto is BIG in Brazil! Can anyone confirm this? :)

Thy say that Esperanto is most popular in Eastern Asia and least popular in North America.
1 person has voted this message useful



zooplah
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
zooplah.farvista.net
Joined 6373 days ago

100 posts - 116 votes 
Speaks: English*, Esperanto
Studies: German

 
 Message 30 of 91
21 January 2010 at 12:03am | IP Logged 
Halie wrote:
 English functions as an international language.

Not at the time Volapük, Esperanto, and Ido were created.
1 person has voted this message useful



zooplah
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
zooplah.farvista.net
Joined 6373 days ago

100 posts - 116 votes 
Speaks: English*, Esperanto
Studies: German

 
 Message 31 of 91
21 January 2010 at 12:15am | IP Logged 
John Smith wrote:
Because languages like esperanto are not really neutral.

Yes, they are. They don't belong to any group, so they're neutral.

John Smith wrote:
They are often based on the creator's native language.

Are you saying that Esperanto is based on Polish and Russian? I'd like to see a scientific theory to back that one up.

John Smith wrote:
I doubt a Japanese or a Chinese person would find Esperanto as being more neutral than say French.

Of course they do. There was a report on CRI (Ĉina Radio Internacia) about Chinese children quickly picking up Esperanto. There have been similar anecdotes by adults who learned it quickly where they failed in learning Indo-European languages. Really, you're parroting refuted nonsense and I'm parroting the refutations. The late Claude Piron had a couple articles about ways in which Esperanto was structurally more similar to Chinese than to English and French.

John Smith wrote:
What we really need is a language that isn't based on any known language dead or alive.

An a priori language (like Solresol)? Good luck getting that one to stick. In fact, most conlangers who disapprove of Esperanto do so because it's a schematic a posteriori language (like Volapük was) instead of a naturalistic a posteriori language (like Occidental, Interlingua, Novial, etc.).

Edited by zooplah on 22 January 2010 at 8:08pm

1 person has voted this message useful



zooplah
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
zooplah.farvista.net
Joined 6373 days ago

100 posts - 116 votes 
Speaks: English*, Esperanto
Studies: German

 
 Message 32 of 91
21 January 2010 at 12:26am | IP Logged 
Cainntear wrote:
So it follows that learning another language after Esperanto is easier than learning that same language without having studied any other language. Esperanto is nothing special in that respect.

No kidding! What is special is that you can learn the rules of grammar without learning the exceptions.

Cainntear wrote:
there are other conlangs which are said to be even easier and quicker to learn.

Such as? Let's see:
Volapük - Four cases (five in the reform), thousands of conjugated forms (it's so complex and involved that Schleyer had to highlight the root of the verb in the learning material)
Ido - Esperanto, only with double the vocabulary, less flexible syntax, ...
Interlingua - three conjugations, no standardized pronunciation, implied accents, no rules for derivation, the "de is used for everything" problem, ...
Lojban - Experimental logical language trying to alter human perceptions.

I know there are a lot more, but none are easier than Esperanto, unless you already know French, Italian or Spanish (and then, I suppose, Ido and Interlingua would be dead simple, but not so much for the rest of us).


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