Does international language work? (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

Does international language work?
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Language Learning Forum : General discussion

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lackinglatin
Triglot
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Speaks: English*, Esperanto, Modern Hebrew
Studies: Spanish

Message 66 of 91

18 March 2010 at 12:55am | IP Logged

Tombstone wrote:

The case for Esperanto falls apart when you step back and realize that, while it would allow representatives/diplomats/negotiators of any nation to communicate with those of the same level in any other nation...

...it does not allow for communication with the general populace of those nations.

Any speech, press conference, or interview would have to be done in the language of the individual nation or translated from Esperanto in advance for public consumption.

A diplomat or trade representative from one nation would be ill-prepared for the simplest interactions within the nation they were stationed -- watching local news, ordering from McDonald's, visiting a doctor, speaking with a cop...

Rank-and-file people would likely begin seeing Esperanto as elitist.

Actually, they would probably just find a reason to learn it, and do so. Esperanto is historically a language of common people, of labor-party types. It has gone around governments at worked at a grassroots level for all of its history. If the government follows, that doesn't make the language elitist, and I doubt that would make it elitist.

Regardless, they (diplomats) probably won't switch to Esperanto until a significant portion of the people have. It wouldn't take much for Esperanto to spread, because it's really, really easy. Once it hits critical mass, passing 'the tipping point', seeing Esperanto TV channels, websites, menus, etc. come to pass won't take much. And it will very quickly multiply.

The percent of the population of the world that Speaks Esperanto right now is higher than it has ever been--not just numbers, but percent. That means it has grown substantially along with the world's population. .And it is only getting faster

----

Edit: added the following:

Quote:

"I would hardly put Esperanto on the same level as other languages with the same numbers or less, most with a long historical and cultural contributions, many whose total speakers indicates their vastly declined numbers instead of their current maximum.

But hey, if you actually feel you can put Esperanto (in all its historical and cultural glory) on the same level as Latin or Navajo, more power to you...

Me, I still see it as Klingon without the costumes."

How you see it isn't important. What is important is data. Klingon is a handful of people playing a game. Esperanto causes political movements that receive votes in European countries. It's obviously not in the same league. Do you know how many speakers there are of Lithuanian? Sure, it's not a huge country, but it's a country you've heard the name of... and Esperanto has a comparable if not larger speaking population than that country. Someone said hundreds of books, earlier--Esperanto actually has about 25,000+ works, both original and translated. It actually has a fairly rich literary history, since the language tends to attract literary minds.

Can you say any of those things about Klingon?

And it clearly far overshadows Navajo. Esperanto is spoken throughout the entire world; Navajo is a dying language restricted to one people in one place.

Quote:

""Consultative relations" -- Care to be specific about their input and impact?

"General working relationship?" -- Same questions.

Or are you saying that just because they were invited to the table (small as it is) that they are now "playing with the big boys?"

"It works in an official capacity with the International Organization for Standardization (ISO)."
And what has that accomplished exactly? How do we measure that impact?

"Active in public information?" Used by whom and to what degree?

"The organisation is a member of the European Language Council."
I would hope so. But again, what has that wrought? What accomplishments?

It appears their resume' has impressed you. But where is the actual impact?

As soon as nations begin negotiating, conducting trade and signing pacts between one another in Esperanto, let me know.

Until then, feel free to revel in the successes of the last 102 years."

It's very clear that Esperanto does not have a ton of political clout. But it does have something, and it is something tangible and real. Can you imagine if Klingon had this resume? Obviously Klingon is a joke, and this 'resume' shows the clear distance between the two, which are more or less incomparable. Progress happens in steps. There are countries in the world with less political clout than the UEA.

Why are you so inimical? It's pretty clear why you were once banned, though I'm not familiar with the story.

Edited by lackinglatin on 18 March 2010 at 1:04am
3 persons have voted this message useful

Volte
Tetraglot
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Switzerland
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Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian
Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese

Message 67 of 91

18 March 2010 at 2:06am | IP Logged

Tombstone wrote:

Volte wrote:

Tombstone wrote:

However, as far as Esperanto goes, the downside of implementing usage on a large scale for business/governmental/diplomatic purposes far outweighs the possible upside.

It would take governmental action by a large number of countries before the language would progress beyond that of a novelty.

Very likely, assuming that you mean a novelty for wide-scale business/governmental use. As a language, it hasn't been a novelty in over a century.

That said, the UEA has a certain limited power. To quote from wikipedia: "In addition to the UN and UNESCO, UEA also has consultative relations with UNICEF and the Council of Europe, and a general working relationship with the Organization of American States. It works in an official capacity with the International Organization for Standardization (ISO). UEA is active in public information in the European Union and as necessary at other interstate and international organizations and conferences. The organisation is a member of the European Language Council, a common forum of universities and language associations for the awareness of languages and cultures in and outside of the European Union."

-- All that...since its inception in 1908? These guys are really on a roll, aren't they?

"Consultative relations" -- Care to be specific about their input and impact?

"General working relationship?" -- Same questions.

Or are you saying that just because they were invited to the table (small as it is) that they are now "playing with the big boys?"

"It works in an official capacity with the International Organization for Standardization (ISO)."
And what has that accomplished exactly? How do we measure that impact?

"Active in public information?" Used by whom and to what degree?

"The organisation is a member of the European Language Council."
I would hope so. But again, what has that wrought? What accomplishments?

It appears their resume' has impressed you. But where is the actual impact?

As soon as nations begin negotiating, conducting trade and signing pacts between one another in Esperanto, let me know.

Until then, feel free to revel in the successes of the last 102 years.

Volte wrote:

Tombstone wrote:

As of right now it is simply "Klingon without the fancy costumes."

Only if you're willing to classify most of the world's languages with under 2 million speakers that way. It strikes me as quite a misrepresentation.

I would hardly put Esperanto on the same level as other languages with the same numbers or less, most with a long historical and cultural contributions, many whose total speakers indicates their vastly declined numbers instead of their current maximum.

But hey, if you actually feel you can put Esperanto (in all its historical and cultural glory) on the same level as Latin or Navajo, more power to you...

Me, I still see it as Klingon without the costumes.

I'm not going to answer this.

4 persons have voted this message useful

datsunking1
Diglot
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United States
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Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French

Message 68 of 91

18 March 2010 at 2:58am | IP Logged

lackinglatin wrote:

Why are you so inimical? It's pretty clear why you were once banned, though I'm not familiar with the story.

I was just about to say that, then I realized someone else was ahead of me. Tombstone there's no need to act like that.
1 person has voted this message useful

abr
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Message 69 of 91

18 March 2010 at 8:50am | IP Logged

Even in case there would not be English already, no conlang is capable to become dominating international language by itself. There is no help of easy grammar, transparent vocabulary or anything else. And current situation around Esperanto and others is an obvious example.
Some hypothetic uopian or experimental pact between at least several countries to set one common language as mandatory first foreign to study to, could achieve some results. But you see it will never happen because one very simple reason – there is no problem to solve. World runs perfectly well in terms of languages and international interaction just as it is for a long time already.
Moreover it is a human high opinion of themselves and their pride that constantly lights up desire to improve everything around, even something, which lacks of room for. And here you are with a wanna-be-lingua-franca conlangs and their creators as a perfect example of it.

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lackinglatin
Triglot
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Speaks: English*, Esperanto, Modern Hebrew
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Message 70 of 91

18 March 2010 at 1:06pm | IP Logged

Why is no conlang able to become a dominating international language?

Quote:

There is no help of easy grammar, transparent vocabulary or anything else.

I can tell you probably understand high level English, and have a fairly high level of English; you probably speak pretty well, as I can see some colloquial usage in your writing that sounds fairly fluid.

And yet I read what you've written in English, the current Lingua Franca, and all I really see are your errors. You're a second class citizen in the world of native English Speakers. Some of us will treat you better than others, but you will be looked down upon by the majority of native English speakers. They won't mean to, but you'll sound unintelligent.

Think about it: we unconsciously rate intelligence, by default, on quality of language usage. If someone speaks English well, they sound intelligent. If they use ebonics, we immediately assume they are unintelligent.

So while you say there is no problem, the world works fine--the world works pretty well for me, but significantly less so for you. You are at a disadvantage that you likely will never overcome with a significant amount of work, and even then, you'll probably never be my equal in my language after years of study.

Quote:

...Just how forceful and pernicious this problem can be was brought home to me in a very direct way some twenty-five years ago. At that time my wife Angela and I, living in Great Britain, regularly attended the weekly meetings of the London Esperanto Club. One of the other members of the club was a man well known among Esperantists as a clear-thinking intellectual with outstanding oratorical capabilities ("silver-tongued" was an adjective used to describe him). Outside the Esperanto movement, he was also recognized as one of the world's leading authorities on Eastern European (particularly Soviet) jurisprudence, and was a sought-after lecturer on the subject at London University College and the London School of Economics.

One night, after a meeting, he joined a group of us for an after-meeting snack at a local restaurant. When it came time for him to order, for the first time I heard him speak in English: "Aye vood layk de hom on de ekz," very slowly and deliberately.

Intellectually I knew, then as now, that this man was an outstanding human being. And I confess to a certain shame at the sudden, unbidden gut feeling that translated itself to my mind as: "What is this person doing here? He should be down on Skid Row, sitting in the gutter with a bottle of cheap wine in his hand!" Because clearly he was not my intellectual equal; he couldn't even talk straight!

--http://donh.best.vwh.net/Esperanto/EBook/chap02.html

There's another example of 'the problem' before that in the same chapter:

Quote:

My best friend, Chien Ming-chi, is a Chinese woman from Shanghai. She grew up expecting to become a teacher of English, and to that end she took every high-school English course that was available, passing with flying colors; then she spent five years of college continuing along the same path. She taught English for many years at East China Normal University in Shanghai -- her specialty was modern American drama -- and she once spent twenty-one months in the United States, improving her English at San Francisco State University.

She has also studied Esperanto. She took one semester of the language in her last year of college. Some thirteen or fourteen years later she was drafted to help with Esperanto courses at her university; and to that end, during her stay in the United States, she spent six weeks studying Esperanto at the San Francisco State University intensive summer courses. From 1983 until 1990 she taught Esperanto, as well as English, at her university in Shanghai, and she has been responsible for the Esperanto courses taught under the DeCal program at the University of California at Berkeley since that time.

You can see from the above description that she has a much more extensive background in English than in Esperanto. Nevertheless, when we talk on the phone we always speak in Esperanto. Once, when she had written me that she was starting a new English class, I suggested that we might talk in English for a few minutes, for practice. Her agreement was enthusiastic. But within three minutes, we had tacitly switched back to Esperanto -- her doing, not mine. Apparently she felt less comfortable "talking uphill" with me. It was easier to be friends on a common level.

It doesn't stop there. I am incapable of communicating anything meaningful with 90+% of the world's population. That's the real problem. This just shows that the current patch--English--isn't really cutting it.

----

Governments also have something to gain--money. The UN and EU spend [bold]billions[/bold] on language translation, and the quality is not always guaranteed... Claude Piron, a UN translator for French, Russian, Chinese, English (and Spanish? I don't remember [if?] others, those four are enough though!), has mentioned observing other translators from a managerial position and watching them skip entire phrases, or inserting space filler for something they missed.

But unfortunately, the powers that be have much more incentive--monetary and otherwise--to keep the language problem as it is: in their favor.

Languages can't be 'improved'--I would agree with you there. I love English just the way it is. Languages are made to help people communicate with each other, and they do that perfectly.

But languages are not designed (for lack of better word--purposed? 'intended'?) to be learned as an adult, and so they don't do that well. Languages are really, really hard to learn for non-natives. That is something that can be improved, and it obviously has been in Esperanto. It doesn't claim to be a better language, just a better inter-language.

Edited by lackinglatin on 18 March 2010 at 1:10pm
5 persons have voted this message useful

lackinglatin
Triglot
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United States
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Speaks: English*, Esperanto, Modern Hebrew
Studies: Spanish

Message 72 of 91

19 March 2010 at 2:44am | IP Logged

Check the Wikipedia article and look up the links yourself. We gave you information, trust it if you like. The point was not to show actual impact, but to show that it exists as a political entity that is taken seriously and has formal relationships with major international players. We all know that doesn't mean they are voting on whether countries get accepted into the UN, no one is saying anything like that. Yes, the list sounds more impressive than it should to the one who reads uncritically.

But it is a legitimate list of very real accomplishments. And I really do believe Esperanto has the potential to achieve more than Navajo did.

This attempt to veil your staggering position by another's honor is a bit absurd. The Navajo people being a proud people has nothing to do with Esperanto.

The last note... Volte seems to have responded pretty calmly. I think I'm being quite a bit more zealous than her*, but that's mostly because I see false and misleading arguments. I happen to have been a debate captain at one point, and have a particular dislike for that sort of crap.

Grow up and stop flaming.

Further, if you want a list of the accomplishments of Esperanto, go look. UEA was responsible for getting letters to loved ones in both directions during WWII, and is responsible for seeing groups of people culturally divided within their region see reconciliation. Here in Israel, a friend of mine just started a project seeking to put Palestinian and Jewish youth together through Esperanto. There began to be middle eastern conferences for Esperanto a couple years back that have great potential for this sort of thing. There are real accomplishments of this language.

What's in it for you to be so blindly aggressive towards positive people trying to find a solution?

edited: Volte is a female. Good to know!

Edited by lackinglatin on 19 March 2010 at 6:42pm

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